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An anon in /m/ suggested a thread about fandom psychology, but it seemed like a better fit for /ot/ than for /m/.
Discuss why you think the following phenomena exist:>Harassment of the creators of the content fans purport to enjoy>Pro/Anti shipping drama>Outlandish woke fanart/headcanons>Parasocial relationships with actors, often involving stalking>Fans dogpiling each other over petty bullshit, like having a "problematic fave.">Autistically detailed knowledge of lore, but zero understanding of themes>Acting completely unhinged in public spaces (conventions, meetups, etc.)
Include examples of these behaviors if necessary; they do not need to be recent.
Remember that while the following topics are relevant and it's fine to discuss them, they also have their own threads:
Western Animation Industry: >>>/snow/1585248
>Parasocial relationships with actors, often involving stalking>Autistically detailed knowledge of lore, but zero understanding of themes>Acting completely unhinged in public spaces (conventions, meetups, etc.)
I agree with >>1377009
I think that this sort of thing can mainly be attributed to literal autism. Especially with teenagers, specifically teenage girls with trouble socializing in their real life and too much time spent on the internet. Not to say that males are exempt from this though.
>Harassment of the creators of the content fans purport to enjoy>Pro/Anti shipping drama>Outlandish woke fanart/headcanons>Fans dogpiling each other over petty bullshit, like having a "problematic fave."
This is a little more interesting to me. I think that the stuff mentioned above is classic annoying nerd behavior, but the obsession with moral purity and wokeness above all else, is more recent IMO. I do think that a lot of people end up moving past this mindset as they mature, and that probably a good number of people who do this are secretly ambivalent and going with the crowd out of fear of getting dogpiled. I'm not really sure why some people genuinely act this way though. A lot of people are not media literate and can't understand that showing something "wrong" in a piece of media doesn't necessarily mean that the author endorses it. The internet makes it easy for retards to put their opinion on blast for thousands of other retards to agree with and enforce. Seems that a lot of people also just love feeling vindicated on the internet.
Sorry for writing a book, I just think this kind of thing is interesting. Hope some of this made sense, I'm tired.
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i miss being part of a fandom(used to be a pegasister and SP autist). I wonder if fandoms with that old school feeling still exist?
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oh and also, does anyone have a list of artists kicked off a fandom by the sweaty squad? I can only think of Gashi Gashi
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>was super into online fandoms because I liked some manga, video games, tv shows, etc. but didn't find anyone to talk about them irl and had no other hobbies because I was dirt poor and sheltered by my paranoid, religious parents
>made a tumblr in 2012 at 17, thought it was gonna be like lj and old forums in terms of armosphere
>everyone is a sperg, gender hc debates everywhere at all times even back then, the normal fangirls would just post art, fics, actual headcanons and would try to guess what would happen in next games, chapters or episodes but they all turned into sjws or left
>befriend girls who are into Ace Attorney
>one of them is obsessed with it and with Persona 4, admits she's diagnosed with aspergers
>I delete my account at some point in 2016
>befriended girl in uni who was a foreign student and who seemes very shy and awkward in a normal way, we bond because we both like Persona 4 a lot and ship two of the guys together
>she loses focus years later, skips classes and ruins her careee prospects because of FF14
>cries like a baby in pure rage because one girl in her FF14 guild "stole" some graphic ideas to present her own warrior of light in a pptx file, idk I think she used the same background color as my friend did or some shit
>I see her this weekend
>her weird tics and lolsorandumXD interjections have gotten worse
>she tells me she highly suspects he's a high functioning autist and she'll ask her therapist
>talks about others by calling them "normies", hates fandoms but acts like it's the only thing she has
I'm suspecting it's all autism now I had doubts, I thought people from all walks of life were into fandoms but there has been some sort of shift imo years ago when somewhat mentally healthy fans got fed up and left or created their own small private groups with friends online and the underaged retards and the actual, diagnosed retards are now running the asylum. Now that I have irl friends and other hobbies and occupations on top of liking some video games and series I don't have the time or patience for this shit and now that I'm far removed from this insanity it's all so obvious that fandoms have turned to shit because of this when I check some tags on tumblr or twitter.
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Unironically letting middle schoolers into fandom discourse was a mistake. you can't even lightly comment on something without some kid going "so how much cp do you have saved on your computer huh???" like it's a winning argument and I'm supposed to kneel in respect or something. some woman in fandom in drawing/writing in the middle of nowhere is not the prime face of pedophilia I promise you. For the rest of you, try joining fandom servers/circles that are populated by older people, have age gated salt channels, strict ship hate/discourse rules or all three. If you gatekeep autists hard they can't do anything but flail around in anger>>1377172
Media literacy is genuinely in the shitter these days, because I see a take like this almost daily trying to interact with public fandom>generally unlikable and ignorant character says something ignorant about anything or anyone>this means that the author thinks this too and hates minorities or agrees with this theme>why would you want to write about bad things?
IMO the voltron fandom set the bar even more than other fandoms. I feel like they completely normalized trying to harm the crew behind a show if you don't like something that they did. It only takes one schizo to send glass shards in a cupcake, or try to hold leaks hostage or something. Now you can't just
disagree with or dislike a plot point. You can form a parasocial relationship with the people behind the show and try scare them into submission if they don't do what you want! excellent
studying/getting a job/having irl friends really puts all that shit into perspective. even if i was a teen back then, i cannot fathom spending that much time being this autistic about online fandoms anymore.
sometimes i remember 20+ year olds getting into debates about kinning, gender headcanons and their right to draw mpreg porn as part of their "transmasc identity" and realize they must've been actually retarded. to their credit tho, one of them actually admitted that schizophrenia made her mentally disabled kek.
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At this point building your own community is the best option, honestly. >>1377208
the Animal Crossing fandom is so fucking autistic, remember when they attacked a girl for using space buns? Animal Crossing festers those autistic people, it's a game made for children and Japanese women that spend 25 hours daily working and need to hold on to something to not off themselves, not for 20yo trooners whose only goal in life is to get the most ratios on twitter and have never worked a day in their life.
I find this topic very interesting, glad a thread was made for it.
Just yesterday I was talking with someone about how entitled fandom have become, I feel people now take stuff like free fan translations, scans and uploads for granted, ignoring all the work and money that happens behind them. Lots of people dont appreciate them because they think its "the work" the person who owns these things is supposed to do; and I have even seen others re-uploading translations/scans without credit just because they disliked who the OP was.
Though this & everything mentioned in the OP thread is not a problem of just fandom, but of the current internet culture in general. Now that everyone and their grandma uses internet (read: the same 4 social media), the lines between real life & internet persona blurred so it gave birth to all: even more parasocial relationships now that we have access to everyone's lives 24/7, the need to be morally correct all the time because it now affects your real life, entitlement and low valuing art due to how short-lived posts in social media are, having your political views in the open…
Before there used to me spaces for fandom/geek stuff and spaces for your real/private life, but now everything is smashed together on the same apps…
Like others have said, lots of the dumb behaviour in fandoms are just 15yos being 15, but honestly I feel adults fighting those teens to "own" them is just as pathetic. It sucks that often artists, writers and such are chased off social media because these teens though (sometimes even getting their accounts banned). I wish we could stop having stupid labels like anti/pro and just accept we all have different boundaries and put the line on different places. And that following someone doesnt mean you agree politically on everything with then.
I dont mind NSFW myself and everyone is free to do whatever they want with their accs, but yeah it sucks to have it shoved down your throat when you follow someone for their SFW stuff.
I appreciate japanese artists lots for this, since they often put their NSFW on sites like fursetter so you have to go out your way and click the link to view the art, it isnt displayed on the tweet itself. It's very easy to turn a blind eye and follow people thanks to it.
Western artists though… they will call you a prude and sex-negative if you dont feel like viewing porn and they dont even use the new content warning flags twitter added because it will make people engage with the tweet/art less (and when they use it, its for jokes). At least some people put the +18 emoji on their names, but still…
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There was also Zamii070, who was chased out of multiple fandoms. I guess she doesn't hold a grudge though, because she's back into a lot of the fandoms she used to be part of.>>1377177
Same. I miss the old Homestuck fandom, back before all the social justice crap took hold around late 2012. Aside from a handful of people acting like maniacs at conventions, it was cringe in a fun, carefree way.
Sadly, literally everyone I was friends with in the fandom as a teen has since trooned out. I'm super thankful I didn't, though I'm not sure how avoided catching the gender bug. I was into yaoi and stuff too, and I was tomboyish. I guess I just really lucked out?
>>1377208>the more "saccharine" a piece of media is, the more aggro the fandom is
I don't think that's always the case, though it often is. The GOT fandom was fucking unhinged (in a scrotal way, of course) while the show was airing. They literally harassed Jeoffrey's actor to the point that the guy had to quit acting for a few years.
I think the idea of "cutesy source material / insane fandom" mostly applies in the realm of shit popular with women and SJW types. When the source material is ~heckin wholesome~ and potentially even aimed at kids, the crazies have a built-in pretense for leading puritanical lynch-mobs.
>>1377172>the obsession with moral purity and wokeness above all else, is more recent
The fact that most of the people acting that way are 13-25 just blows my mind. All the previous generations spent those years being rebellious and having fun, meanwhile zillenial teenagers act like Jehova's Witnesses with a woke coat of paint. Bizarre. I'll be very curious to see what these peoples' midlife crises will look like.
Gomen for doubleposting
good thread.>>1377218>I feel people now take stuff like free fan translations, scans and uploads for granted
People who dedicate their spare time towards making content available for everyone are doing gods work, but how dare they aren’t fast enough/have opinions you hate/dont pander to your taste or whatever nitpick you have. It’s the same consumerist attitude people have towards authors and content creators, “WAAH my entertainment fix didnt come fast/didnt pander to my taste enough!!” it’s bleak and disrespectful as fuck. In their eyes everything that doesnt pander to them is hostile or wrong and needs to be corrected or shat on. Also the sentiment that people who have different opinions need to be seen as enemies or be ridiculed is so toxic
. I wonder were this comes from, being salty because someone said something you hate/has different headcanons or what? Can any oldfags confirm if this is more common nowadays? I’ve seen people in fandoms casually talk about screenshotting posts of other fans for simply having different opinions on their favorite characters or whatever unimportant shit no one actually gives a fuck about. Literally what the hell is wrong with them, nobody cares you think, but then you find a group of people somewhere who are unironically getting riled up and make vague “call out posts” on twitter about shit as trivial as opinions on fiction while trying to give it a moral flavor kek. >>1377284>i doubt most of them would even reach midlife
I think about this too but not because of doomery but because sometimes I wonder how someone manages to sustain basic needs on their own when everything that doesnt pander to them triggers
them into minor meltdowns.
Pretty much. Most "headcanons" no longer fit the definition of headcanon but rather projections of fans' selves onto their favourite characters, which combined with the minority representation obsession makes for a very toxic
fandom environment. At least fanfics like My Immortal (this one is almost certainly a trollfic, but many others similar enough to it are not), while obvious wish fulfillments, do not guilt trip you and imply you're a bigot over disliking the butchering of canon characters.
Honestly, anime fans have always been psychotic toddlers about people having different opinions. I remember really triggering
somebody back in the day because I said I wished fucking TokyoPop hadn't been the ones to license a specific title. Because TP is/was shit. And then TP fucked up the DVDs, because of course they did. I remember times when I triggered
people just trying to compliment other people. There was one message board where I had some bozo riding my ass in every thread I posted in, just because she disagreed with me once.
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Y'know I've noticed that projection has become a major and large part of headcanon when that defeats the purpose of a headcanon in itself. A lot of people tend to make the character they love their own rather than appreciate the character for who they are originally. It gets to the point where people will change the character with all sorts of stuff that it just resembles an OC who has ties to the original character rather than the original character itself. I don't really understand the appeal of LGBT headcanons either.
To me, most lgbt headcanons are purely for shipping reasons and as a multi-shipper aficionado I feel it's restrictive to have a fictional character with no pre-established sexuality be restricted to a sexuality that keeps them from other interesting ships is boring and sort of ruins the fun. I already treat each ship as it's own contained universe of sorts anyways.
Speaking of which, what's with the weird disdain for "hetships"? It always feels like M/F content is seen always weird, wrong, or boring and when there is a hetship it's always the girlboss/malewife, bi4bi, t4t shit.
Race headcanons also don't appeal to me and I barely understand them and why. Though that's probably because my fandom has no humans in the slightest.
The quote retweets of pic related are very telling as to how the modern fandom approaches headcanon, my fandom is so cancerous and rife with this shit at times and I hate it so much.
notice how it's literally never same sex ships headcanoned as such, in fact when characters in canon same sex relationships are actually implied to be or literally are called bisexual they're often headcanoned as gay with "comphet", unless they really are too obviously into the opposite sex as well. "Bi erasure is problematic
!!" but only to yell at people calling straight ships straight.>I already treat each ship as it's own contained universe of sorts anyways
I would consider this the fairest approach tbh
I feel like this attitude in the fandom heavily correlates with consumer culture in general. In 10s nerd media was all the rage and people defined themselves as geeks because they consumed marvel movies and bought merchandise. It was that weird shit like "I am what I buy" or "I am what I watch". Now your subculture was defined by what you watch, like GOT, Marvel, fucking Harry Potter, whatever. People felt that this stuff is part of their personality. It's a very early-mid 10s thing, I think you all remember so-called nerds who made Star Wars or Harry Potter their whole personality. And obviously, if that stuff defines you, you don't want your media of choice be problematic or toxic, otherwise you would be known as a toxic person. So obviously more rigorous and autistic fans wanted to make fandom spaces and media more "wholesome" since you don't want to be that weirdo who participates in "unwholesome" fandoms. It's a case of terminally online people who make their dumb assumptions show or bibio games their whole live and want to tailor the media and fandom to their wants.
This also makes people "claim" work of other people. I noticed this cringe when soyboy on reddit drool over Marvel movies making a lot of money in the box office, acting like they "won". Tumblrtards act the same, except they have different approaches. They treat the media as if they own it too, but instead of gawking at sales, they police everything artists do and feel obliged to "fix" the work if something goes wrong (they think so). It all began even in 00s whe fans wanted to fix Harry Potter and claimed that JKR got it all wrong and she doesn't know shit, because eshe mistreated our boi Snape. Then in 00s fans started claiming that they know about race and gender more than creators and treat headcanon as canon, because fans know better and they actually own the media property.
Ooof, it was very chaotic, but I hope I explained my point clearly. In short, fandom drama is a mirror of general mainstream consumer culture, but more twisted, dark and retarded.
Before it was a thing for weirdos, freaks and spergs. In 10s even normies started associating themselves with media. Who cared if you liked unwholesome shows in the 00s? If you were a geek, people still thought you was a weirdo, so what's the point in making yourself non-toxic
and woke? Now everyone and wants to put on a face and some people take it too far.
>>1377204>Unironically letting middle schoolers into fandom discourse was a mistake.
I was saying this in 2014 and I will say it again in 2022. Children do not belong in fandom spaces. Almost all of fandom content is created by adults due to the sheer volume of people over 18, the oldest geeky millenials being in their mid 40's by now. But at some point every adult was demanding 14-16 year olds to be allowed entry because they were projecting their own past to those kids, being barred from the cool big adults' club and left to peek from the crack of the door while being shooed out the moment they tried to sneak in. They never realized that it was for their own good, to prevent them from learning a destructive mindset or being exploited themselves. There are plenty of stories of "proship" kids being pressured by their peers into dogpiling and harassing creators to prove their loyalty since that's basically the quintessential teenager mindset, and there are just as many stories of these kids being abused by adults who claim to be "one of the good ones" because they don't (openly) like problematic
ships, but nonchalantly start grooming the kid either sexually or manipulating them into being their personal assistant.
>I feel like they completely normalized trying to harm the crew behind a show if you don't like something that they did.
Voltron normalized this on a larger scale because the creators were the first ones to be present in social media and who would give in to the demands set by the schizos threatening their big name property and the production. That sent a signal to everyone about being unhinged paying off, and once that genie's out the bottle it's almost impossible to put back in.
>>1377437>Speaking of which, what's with the weird disdain for "hetships"? It always feels like M/F content is seen always weird, wrong, or boring and when there is a hetship it's always the girlboss/malewife, bi4bi, t4t shit.
Not addressing the tranny headcanons but a lot of LGB people get almost zero representation in media and all the rare well-made, genuine, balanced, non-opportunistic same sex couples are more of a nudge and a wink from the creators that could be just played off as being "good friends", so shipping gives them a chance to enact an alternative universe where being homosexual is as normalized and common as heterosexuality. For someone who didn't grow up as a gay kid deprived of feeling loved and being accepted as a potential romantical or sexual partner, it's probably hard to understand and only looks like "stupid heterophobic queerios making everything gay". And due to heterosexual ships being so common and especially because female characters are even to this day portrayed as pretty prizes for the male protagonists, yeah, a lot of people hate them for what they represent. For me I'm much more enthusiastic about gay ships because they rely on fandoms keeping them alive while hetships kinda just exist there in the canon, they don't need my help.
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I agree with this too. It's pretty saddening.>>1377446>>1377512>I think people who heavily endorse the literary concept of “death of the author” simply want to exist in their own fantasy.
Death of the author in current day fandom specifically
is horrid. It could be used for something interesting but nooooo
, it's almost exclusively used by people who have some sort of petty inconsequential disagreement with something the author wrote or made. Just say that, just say it's petty and move on and go write some fanfic. Sometimes you just end up disagreeing with things or the author is an average idiot.>That sent a signal to everyone about being unhinged paying off, and once that genie's out the bottle it's almost impossible to put back in.
Fuck, it's sad. I think I spoke to an anon in the art salt thread about this. It really did set the standard that being unhinged pays off. You can really make a genuine attempt into crybullying a whole property into including something, huh? Sure there have always been tards (i'm looking at you, mlp) but it has never been this bad, has it? Death threats have long been a thing of course but I feel like now the audience-crew relationship is especially bad.>>1377524
I feel like a lot of these problems could be fixed by just
writing better female characters (impossible apparently) and people would become naturally more inclined, no? In my limited experience it's these ships that I've seen some of my fandom buddies get hyped for. It… doesn't help that the problem is compounded because there's much less of people like you who just want to do your own thing at the back and chill, and unfortunately more of incessant schizos who make it a morality game and start crybullying.
I think the moral of the story is that children and schizos need to get the boot. I think this is something we can all shake on, because this is the most peaceful discussion I've seen on this issue so far and thank goodness for that.
I'm sorry, nonnie
, I didn't meant to be rude to you. I love and respect you. Still, what retarded tranny arcade magic is that?
>>1377512> There are plenty of stories of "proship" kids
Shit, samefagging to correct to say "antiship" kids, not "proship". Proships do have their own cuckoo drama but it's mostly genuine pedos and sickos forcibly co-opting the narrative to defend their degeneracy. >>1377556>Death threats have long been a thing of course but I feel like now the audience-crew relationship is especially bad.
Yes, before the fan communication went through multiple walls before reaching the creator but now any psycho can tweet at the creator telling them they'll rape and murder them if they don't comply. And it doesn't even have to go that far as in threatening the creators, they can just start running the franchise to the ground, call for boycotts, overall organize a huge ruckus to destroy what they claim to love simply to get their way.
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I had the perfect meme I found weeks ago and was gonna post it but I forgot until now kek
When I was in college working on my history credits, I used to jokingly refer to altarpieces and such as "Bible fanart.">>1377459>>1377465
This corporate bullshit made me resent the Superwholock fandom when I was younger. Whenever a business used the term "fandom" or "geek" it was typically one of those IPs. I think it really inflated the egos of the people in them; they thought they were the
fandom, and that liking British shit made them cultured or more intelligent. They were so condescending to the other fandoms on Tumblr at the time, especially anime fans and Homestucks.>>1377512
Agreed. Kids under 13 shouldn't be on social media at all, frankly. I suppose I'm more sympathetic to IPs with children as the target audience, but most fandoms are for things marketed to teenagers or adults. Kids shouldn't be engaging with adult strangers online, and people used to understand that. The onus should be on the parents and owners of the site to regulate what kids are exposed to, not the sites' adult users.
This is not a defense of degenerate fanart, by the way, but unfortunately that shit is always going to exist in every fandom because of cumbrain scrotes and people trying to make money off of cumbrain scrotes.
Are you kidding me? Voltron was nowhere near the first IP to have creators active on social media and interact with fans directly. This has been happening for as long as people have had internet in their homes, the only difference is that the demands of fans have gotten gradually more extreme over time.
The author of Homestuck was way too generous with listening to fan input (owing partially to the suggestion box early on) and it came back to bite him in the ass. People just became increasingly entitled and
more critical of the material (which, granted, did jump the shark a little bit.) Now he's abandoned social media almost entirely, and his most recent story is all about parasocial relationships, groupthink, and fan culture. Go figure.
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thanks for making this thread, fandoms are an alien world to me. This is both terrifying and educational, I had no idea how bad things really got.
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I'm personally curious on dissecting the sexual facets/subsects, the causes of such kink phenomena - and moralities behind the furry fandom - and I'm looking to pick up some nuanced and more objective input in regards to it.
How much of the sexual attraction to anthros or intertwining subcategories kinks/fetishes within the fandom is caused 'organically'/'by itself' by sexual imprints during formative years? How much of it is caused/enabled by calculated grooming/procuring? And how much of sexual harassment within the fandom consists more of a case of autists/awkward coomers with no calculated/predatory intent - just having a poor sense of filters and subconsciously being inconsiderate of boundaries?
Is the established fandom in itself, to any degree - really a front/scheme for grooming? using saccharine artstyles/media to pander/lure naive/vulnerable children (and adults who have a similar youthful/childlike naivette - emphasis on those on the autism spectrum/developmental disabilities) into abhorrent sodomy?
Also - is the statement that 'most furries are relatively decent people - it's only a small minority that happens to be personality disordered/dramatic/toxic
/rapey' true for the most part?
Answers and discussions regarding these pieces (and prompts beyond of furdom psychoanalysis) would be greatly appreciated - especially from those who have more substantial, prolonged and direct experiences within the fandom themselves (and a grasp of its technical history as well.)
What's being said is that Voltron was the first big name show that had first of all approachable creators and secondly creators that actually caved in under the demands of sick people out in the open, some even throwing the bone themselves like the nonbinary-identified voice actor of Pidge not-so-subtly trying to push her as a themlet when she was a tomboy. >>1378076
A lot of furries have their first contact with the furry fandom during their formative years i.e. when they're around 12-15. It's because the cute animal mascots and sparkledogs are obviously approachable and interesting to kids of this age, I know I thought they were cool when I was 13 while I doubt I would be getting into the entire furry genre at an older age. So add into that a predatory adult that lures them in with their fun, charismatic roleplaying fursona and gradually starts grooming them and by 17 they'll be identifying with different pronouns, porn addicted and possibly issues with substance abuse that impairs their cognitive abilities.
>Also - is the statement that 'most furries are relatively decent people - it's only a small minority that happens to be personality disordered/dramatic/toxic/rapey' true for the most part?
Possibly, but they're not doing anything to stop it and would rather pretend it doesn't exist while demonizing other communities to deflect. But that said I don't think it's just a "small minority" issue when it comes to furries. They've been defined by degeneracy since the 80's to the point there's a distinction between them and anthro artists who don't want to be associated.
Great thread, I've been thinking about this subject recently as well. It's been sad to see how people are less likely to lurk/integrate into older fandoms/subcultures, and instead demand that creators and traditions be reshaped around their ideas of reality.>>1377554
Yeah. I've accepted that whatever original content I make, I'm going to put on a personal website with a ton of GC disclaimers and no major social media connections. At the very least, it means that whatever confused leech (anyone who needs existing work to riff off of is a leech, including myself whenever I shit out fanart) that stumbles across my stuff and feels the need to gendertweak it will face potential blowback for being inspired by wrongthink.>>1378078
nta, from what I've noticed among friends and acquaintances, people who've had a quarter or midlife crises all didn't take many risks in their youth and had a bunch of built up regret from their what ifs and if onlys while being stuck with things like mediocre relationships, jobs, debt, etc or a complete lack of any sort of meaningful life progress. I imagine there's going to be a lot of buildup of this sort of thing in the people mentioned by the other nona.
Does SP stand for South Park? Because that fandom never really striked me as being super autistic compared to something like MLP:FIM. But then again I might be sanitized to ugly characters turned into bishounens and fujo shipping.
The fandom just never seemed that big to me. I used to occasionally stumble upon South Park fans back in the day but they never seemed to "force" themselves into others conversation (like saying "does this remind anyone of xyz character?" to literally anything). They mostly seem to just mind their own business. Ironically enough South Park is so integrated into pop culture that I'm sure nobody wouldve mind if their fans started relating everything to South Park
I know they still have fans but I don't see them so much anymore I wonder if it being labeled problematic media has anything to do with that
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I think certain level of moral zealotry is actually typical of adolescence and has been a feature of many youth subcultures in some form or another. Even if the reality of those movements has always been self-serving (e.g. hippies healing the world with "free love").
Young people are more prone to radicalism and black-and-white thinking. It's why terrorist organizations tend to target young men in their recruitment schemes, appealing both to their sense of ethics and their baser instincts ("Fight in a holy war against infidels! Oh, and you also get 72 virgin wives when you die.") Young people blatantly involved in politics also tend to use moral policing as a way to derive a sense of power, especially if they can wield it against their elders.
This. It's probably worse if you have actual autism. I stopped doing "tumblr shit" when I graduated high school, went to college and got a job. I can't imagine going back to that bullshit lmao.
The funnest "fandom" chats I had were on places like IMDB forums or other chans. Anywhere else was just miserable woke circling.>>1377512
I just miss when under 18s got rightfully scolded for talking about how they were underage. Now the internet has to be some safe space for genderspecial kids whose moms took away their phone for thirty minutes.
This is kind of random but I get irritated seeing zoomer/millennials enter the workforce with no concept of boundaries when it comes to signaling their fandom interests. Women working closely with kids will try to make their offices quirky safe spaces with wholocksuper shit everywhere. I just find it ew, you are not their friend.
The consoomer shit and woke circlejerking bother me too, but I'm an adult with a degree and two jobs and I still find time for fandom shit. I just keep to my own small cliques and stay off Twitter, and that seems to work just fine for me.
I dislike when people buy lots of plastic funko crap and other novelty garbage, but I don't see the problem with just hanging posters for shit you like in your workspace, especially if it's a more casual environment. And uh, yeah, women who work with kids use decor in their offices to make themselves more approachable to the kids. It's not unreasonable and I think you're being a little ridiculous as far as that goes.
The problem is that some people are applying this rule for all fandoms regardless of the age appropriateness of the content in the source material. It is absurd to tell a 10 year old she can't like My Little Pony, but really not at all when it comes to let's say Metal Gear Solid.>>1379110
There's disturbing for the sake of disturbing, disturbing for the sake of dark comedy and disturbing for the sake of sexually arousing taboo and South Park was never meant to be the latter.
This is what I define as Adult Only Spaces. They are clearly labeled, locked to the public and boundaries are in place with reasonable expectations that members or followers will be 18+ to even ask to join. If proving age is involved then it still hinges on honesty.
18+ only or DNI: on a public twitter for example is akin to putting plastic spikes on your store roof to discourage pigeons from roosting or shitting on everything.
This is about kids who lie about their ages so that they can see content and interact with creators. Not kids that accidentally find NSFW of their favorite character or when they or adults rightfully have an issue with untagged NSFW in the general tag.
>>1378993>treating shipping as some political crusade for LGBT rights is a distraction intended to lessen women's shame over their sexuality by giving it an aura of moral righteousness.
They aren't mutually exclusive though, M/M shipping for example can be both a realization of female sexuality, straight or homosexual, being explored in an environment where they feel safe and confident doing so (in an all-female community with no female sexualization) and
it can also be women looking for comfort in a scene where same sex shipping with no scrotes present is the norm after feeling like freaks for all their lives. I get that you're probably talking about the moral crusaders making it an entire political statement and nothing else with no fun allowed but even those people aren't entirely wrong about it, they're just getting it backwards.>>1379889
I only join 18+ communities, not porn discords but just servers that don't allow people under 18. They're harder to find but still getting more popular these days.
>>1379229>Women working closely with kids will try to make their offices quirky safe spaces with wholocksuper shit everywhere. I just find it ew, you are not their friend.
I think this is being overly cynical and hypervigilant about it, they're not some creepy womanchildren who want to relive their childhood through children but just make it a more comfortable environment for the kids that could otherwise feel stressed out. My friend works in social services with troubled children specifically and she has told me that the plushies and funny anime memorabilia etc are useful in making her more approachable like >>1379359
Fandom as we talk about it ITT has always been about wish fulfillment for women
whether lesbian, bisexual or straight, which sure can include M/M shipping for whatever reason depending on each shipper, but we still need to keep in mind that it was always supposed to be female wish fulfillment
first of all that actually shouldn't have anything to do with real life men whether gay, bisexual or straight (for the record I do find real life people shippers whether M/M or F/M or F/F really creepy and distasteful). And while the vast majority of media is indeed painfully heterosexual, the majority of it is also painfully male gaze-y and presents women as prizes to be claimed by men, so it's not that surprising that even straight women wouldn't be into that and would rather enjoy content that actually caters to their own desires without being mocked by men and pick-mes for it. For example Twilight, as shitty and, for lack of a better word, problematic
it was (basically thinly veiled Mormon propaganda, let's be real), a huge chunk of the hatred and mockery it received came from it pandering to (straight) women (as opposed to straight men) too much. So honestly as long as there are no autistic slap-fights in the vein of "NOOOO MY HUSBANDO IS NOT GAY" vs "NOOOO HE CAN'T BE YOUR HUSBANDO HE'S GAY" I'll just say ship and let ship, don't like don't read yadda yadda yadda.
I'm envious and in awe of women who have the mental fortitude to tell men to fuck off, that their opinions are worthless and don't faze her. Men are somehow holders of "prevailing and dominant opinion on women's consumption of media" and I hate how easily I absorb it.
On that topic policing sexuality where it falls on the spectrum of "This is mine! Keep your nasty Mary Sue/Fujo/Cishet hands off!" especially the conflict between fujoshi and self insert (is that the same as yumejoshi?).
Ship jealousy is an offshoot of it. I try to think of the ships or interpretations of belonging to the individual. Especially fans who push agendas or force headcanons. I wish everyone could just say, "Fuck off, this is my version and you can go play with your own."
>>1381524>Especially fans who push agendas or force headcanons.
Honestly with genuine homophobes they consider just shipping two same sex characters as "pushing an agenda" whether it would be just to be more accepting of same sex relationships or the female gaze.
The fandom I'm part of has a continuous stream of aggressively heterosexual moids and pickmes who try to "claim" every character before same sex shippers get their hands on it and then cry victim
and globohomo propaganda when they're told that their nonsensical ship sounds more like a "t-this character just CAN'T be gay!" spite stand, which it usually is. I get that it's "just" shipping which shouldn't be that serious but it does hurt for real when someone considers a ship as a personal attack just because it's two characters of the same sex since homophobia is still very much a real thing, and as lame of a buzzword "representation" is there aren't any canonically confirmed gay couples to fall back on. It's one of those things that just doesn't work if the roles were reversed because the dynamics would be entirely different.
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it's especially funny when they say that media is soooo full of lesbians already and that they just can't find any media with a normal female friendship, or that they get upset that you headcanon a masc woman as bi or lesbian, because in their minds the media is flooded with butches and masc samesex attracted women in general. Meanwhile the reality is that lesbian couples are still rare, when they are included it's usually in such a superficial manner and without giving them much personality. Which makes it logical that a female friendship gets headcanonned as a relationship, because they are given more attention and depth. And they have made it a point since the 90's at the very least to "subvert the trope" and make every masc woman as straight as possible. Where is all the butch lesbian media then which needed to be subverted? They were only included as jokes in cartoons and sitcoms and that hasn't changed much with newer media either, even the ones which are supposedly lesbian focused.
Yet some straight women and scrotes with some sort of femdom fetish will get extremely upset if you, let's say, wish Brienne of Tarth was portrayed as a lesbian knight or if it's your personal headcanon.
Imo it reminds me of that study of men thinking that women talk over them and dominate the conversation when after being measured it turned out it was actually men themselves. Considering yourself the norm makes all deviation feel disproportionate. Like when there's a subtle reference to a character having two mothers people fucking blow up because of gayness being "pushed on them", I had to stop following the western animation cows thread because anons there considered representation done even in good faith as propaganda and agenda pushing.
>And they have made it a point since the 90's at the very least to "subvert the trope" and make every masc woman as straight as possible.
Seriously. This is the bane of my existence. A woman can't be masculine and
a lesbian, she must be one but not the other. If she's masculine she needs to be the dominating butch girlfriend carrying a nerdy boy in her arms and if she's a lesbian she must be suitable for that nerdy boy to masturbate to.
I'm sorry, I meant forcing trans and neurodivergent headcanons as irrefutable truth when I mentioned that part. There wasn't a mention of it in the post so I see where you're coming from. Trans headcanons are infuriating, especially when combined with f/f ships. It becomes almost memetic with twitter and tumblr when a character is "____coded" and then you're hard pressed to escape that. Japanese fan art is a whole other mess though due to futa.>>1381590
What fandom are you in? I'm still pissed that Jiro from BNHA is into Kaminari. I didn't see that at all. She and Momo were the only ship I could get into. While rarely hate posted about JiroMomo crosses my path it's always for homophobic reasons. I can't see why she couldn't at least be accepted as bi?!
I'm a closeted fujo, but an out lesbian. Media is difficult to find "my type", especially now that Queer is the push. L Word was a starting point for mainstream or not fanfic or fanart content.
Brienne being straight was a surprise, but it might have been wishful thinking. I didn't read the books, or watch GoT often, but at least she wasn't made transgender. One other (soft?) butch character I can think of is Detective Bennet from Law and Order:SVU but I'm a weeb. This could be a controversial ship, but from Terminator: Dark Fate Grace and Dani have a butch-femme dynamic but I don't have fandom experience to add more.
Seriously though, if male characters can be given endlessly stacked traits and combinations of subversive, but not TOO subversive, ways why are women so regulated? (Easy answer: because of men) but even female creators fail with this.
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the vast majority of human beings are straight, IRL most "masc" women(i.e fit women who workout) are also very much straight, most masc sapphic icons are/were also straight women married to men who most of them time were also "masc", its not "subverting" anything, its reality
Now see here anons, you're witnessing the "b-but most people ARE straight so no non-heteronormative representation is not needed" deflection in action.
Now in all seriousness, did you ever stop to consider that representation isn't only to make those represented feel better about themselves, but also nudge the general populace to be more comfortable with different lifestyles and understand them better? The fact that you think "masc" women is synonymous to "fit women who work out" (also Babe Zaharias is definitely not masc so I don't know what you're trying to convey with your picrel) is alone a proof of how much work there is left to do. GNC women, especially gay ones, are invisible unless they're undercut sportstars with a full face of makeup.
Brienne of Tarth from GoT as explained by >>1381590
is a particularly infamous one lol. yes, masculine straight women do exist. and so do masculine lesbians, and there's nothing wrong or inherently "stereotypical" to depict them on screen as well developed characters.
I find it very interesting when there is basically several fandoms for one media franchise. Idk how to explain it, but if you hanged out with Star Wars people, you would quickly notice that there is not one, but several fandoms and all of them center around different thing. Even more interesting is that it's like an iceberg, and the deeper it goes, the more insane fans sprout out.
Like in anime, you have your normies who watch OPM and Naruto and absolutely deranged lolicons on both sides.
I experienced this stuff cause I'm into Star Wars (or was in my childhood) and comic books. On surface level, you have your normies who just watch MCU and maybe buy a few funky pops. Then, you have casual fans who watched a few cartoons and played some vidya, maybe read some comics. Then, you have hard-core comic book fans who sneer at all the above. And after that, you get truly crazy schizos like waifufags, autists and she/theys with bitch ass takes. You might think that they like the same thing, but they are all very different. When you reach the deep level you will be greater with unseen levels of autism, while on the surface it's some normies watching movies on holidays.
Idk, it's a weird thing for me, but I kinda think that for every media there is a "basic fandom" and a "deep fandom". All the drama is usually found in the later.
I was wondering what kind of shithole fandoms you guys are part of that you see this kind of shit >>1381737
, but it makes sense if they are infested with moids
here's the thing, you are just liking fandom wokeoids you claim to hate, masc/fem or whatever bullshit are terms gay moids made up and queer theorists, real life people are complex and healthy human beings identities aren't based on made up BS>>1381742
she's a well developed character and she's straight just like most human beings
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Having to come up with justifications for why you ship this and not that, advocating or fighting against this or that representation in mainstream media, it all sounds like such a bore, I dunno how anyone drags themself through it.
>Pro/Anti shipping drama
gotta say i agree with what >>1377432
said, i think some part of the moral crusading is just backlash against years of scrotes blatantly lewding kids stuff. the result is the invention of terms like minor coded in an attempt to at least regulate the coomers. on the other hand i do think it's retarded to police shipping fanfiction because even if it's degenerate sometimes it can hardly be as harmful as like futa porn or something. you don't just stumble on explicit fanfiction the way you stumble across porn on google images, at least ao3 has the "adult content" warning, and i'd argue the medium itself doesn't really allow for any surprises the same way images and videos do. not to mention the fact that fanfiction is pretty much always written by women which makes it more justifiable in itself to me kek.>>1378076
speaking as a former furry, i'm inclined to believe most furries simply cultivate their attraction to anthros by continually exposing themselves to furshit. if they get into it during puberty, the imagery will probably have a stronger influence on their sexuality overall. however, i think some circumstances can make you more prone to developing a "weird" sexuality, like childhood trauma and whatnot. tmi here, but i was diddled as a kid, and although i had been exposed to all kinds of normie porn for a long while, mlp porn and furshit had a much bigger impact on my sexuality once i was exposed to that. or at least i developed a much stronger, or rather, more comfortable attraction to that type of pornographic imagery. i think this is because i already had problems with "normal" sexual depictions of human adults - i associated those with feelings of fear, shame, pain and unease/queasiness. anthropomorphic technicolor animals, however, became a sort of "safe space" for my sexual fantasies and explorations. i'm an adult in my 20s now and to this day i get (sometimes extreme) anxiety after having sex or masturbating to normal porn (i quit all kinds of porn a long while ago though). sorry for the degenerate blogging, just wanted to give my 2 cents on furdom.
>>1381771>i think some part of the moral crusading is just backlash against years of scrotes blatantly lewding kids stuff.
Definitely. I believe it's, at least to some degree, ripples from the MLP fandom which started off as a thing for nostalgic adult women and little girls before scrotes got their coomer hands all over it and suddenly the entire franchise was appropriated by misogynistic furry pedophiles. I think that entire saga traumatized online fandoms so bad that they became hypervigilant, but pointed their fingers at the wrong direction - namely women who were always there minding their own business and never caused any harm despite liking content categorized as problematic
. We all know why but since it bears repetition every given chance, it's because women are much more reactive to social pressure as they're likely to be given a much harsher judgment than men.
totally agree with you there. in the case of adults trying to forbid certain fan content for media that's not even for kids, their main motive is probably something other than wanting to "protect kids". i think it has more to do with a need to separate themselves from what they consider the cringey or weird parts of the fandom. or just wanting project their own shame onto others.
i feel like in many cases people utilize the SJW shit just to win shipping wars. if there is some ~problematic
~ aspect of a "rival" ship, they will use that problematic
aspect as a battering ram to promote their own ship. if creators pander to a rival ship, they will screech about how the creators are problematic
, often under the assumption they can eventually force them to make something canon if they cancel them hard enough. case in point: destiel. considering how freaking hard the supernatural writers pandered to destiel shippers, especially in later seasons, the amount of discontent expressed by them is crazy. like they practically made it canon and shippers still reviewbombed the show and harassed the writers and actors to no end, accusing them of homophobia. that's obviously an unfounded claim, but it's easier to make your childish entitlement sound like legitimate criticism if you coat it in some form of politically loaded commentary. this makes me think that the harder creators pander to fans, the more hate they will receive, because people become so greedy they won't settle for anything less than a completely fanfictional scenario that confirms all their ships and headcanons. like >>1377936
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Take a moment to skim through this absolutely insane article. When did fandoms start getting infested with nutjobs like these? I noticed the more childish the media the more retarded the fans.
people have always been attached to fictional characters, when arthur conan doyle killed off Sherlock Holmes, fans actually held wakes for Sherlock in both England and America and demanded doyle bring back holmes
>The public reaction to the death was unlike anything previously seen for fictional events. More than 20,000 Strand readers cancelled their subscriptions, outraged by Holmes’ premature demise. The magazine barely survived. Its staff referred to Holmes’ death as “the dreadful event”.>Outraged readers wrote to the magazine in protest, a woman called him a brute for killing Holmes. Americans started “Let’s Keep Holmes Alive” clubs. Conan Doyle stuck to his guns in the face of the protests, calling the death “justifiable homicide” – referring, presumably, to his own justifications, not Moriarty’s.
8 years later after the magazine offended doyle a sizeable sum of money, he finally brought back sherlock holmes
Oh yeah, of course, not denying that. But I feel like over time everything online has to take the next big step, and now instead of people that claim to be overly attached to a character they like, they have to take it as personal offence because they are
that character. In order to make their feelings sound more valid
, in order to one-up normies that simply like the characters? I'm not sure. And nobody bats an eyelid, in fact, there's a whole community of these people kek
It was a tremendous shit show. Doyle got absolute shit from everyone including little old ladies.
again the only reason he brought him back was because after seven years and a middling post Holmes career, Doyle needed money. his own mom didnt want the stories to end.>“Doyle's attitude towards his most famous creation was ambivalent. In November 1891 he wrote to his mother: "I think of slaying Holmes, … and winding him up for good and all. He takes my mind from better things." His mother responded, "You won't! You can't! You mustn't!" In an attempt to deflect publishers' demands for more Holmes stories, he raised his price to a level intended to discourage them, but found they were willing to pay even the large sums he asked. As a result, he became one of the best-paid authors of his time.”
NTA but nutjob fans detached from reality have existed since biblical times, if you look at it from that perspective every religion is just a fandom taken too far and they all revolve around a dead man. Online spheres have just made it easier for us to be exposed to their insanity that always existed there and that we never were aware of. >>1382652
To be fair a lot of people specifically have so many problems IRL they can't handle emotionally so they divert their attention with an obsessive emotional attachment to fictional characters. My friend who years ago was in the trenches of severe depression and anxiety actually talked about killing herself because her favourite character died. Thank god she got on meds.
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NTA, she didnt list her age on her about, but it is sure an adventure to read.
Nta byt>Who cares if they do that?
Cause they get aggressive if you don't agree with their ~totally queer~ headcanons, duh
I understand feeling sad for fictional characters and relating to them to some degree but wtf did I just read? It took me a second to get that the person who wrote this is a kinnie and writing from the characters standpoint. how do these people survive the daily grind just HOW
regarding the fandom/religion discussion, of course fandom isnt the same as big state religions that got established since centuries and have an enormous cultural impact up until today. but the same social dynamics and trends that are found in religion can be found in fandoms or other groups as well and do serve the same purpose for some people, people who act like this in modern fandom context would likely behave similar if they would have grown up under different circumstances in a heavily religious environment 500 years ago (or today) for example. Fandoms and other fringe goups are capable of satisfying similar needs and can be seen as some sort of petri dish for study human behavior. I first read about this theory in that particular doompost from 2012 or something with charlie from the peanuts staring out of the window as a picture that got reposted here somewhere, dont recall which thread. Of course most of those shenanigans are more or less harmless and only worthy for psychological studies or laughs, but crusaders gonna crusade etc. There have been instances where fandom insanity showed a potential for irl violence thats definitely concerning and amounted to death threats towards the creators and such though, so the theory does hold some water imo.
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I guess better comparison would be cults rather then full religions, tell me some of these traits don't apply to certain fandom behavior
I mean I think we can all laugh at mega spergs like that. But I dont think hcing a character as gay or whatever is immediate cringe. Honestly there aren't a lot of gay characters out there so I'm empathize
Maybe I'm just being nitpicky about the wording ignore me nona
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What are some of your go-to examples of "The target audience missed or ignored the point extirely".
Brief history: Me!Me!Me is a critique of hentai. It depicts the insidiousness of porn addiction starting at a cute bouncy intro welcoming the viewer and progressed through a violent acid trip for the consequences it has on mental health, alienation from real world (romantic) relationships and emotional intimacy.
It has attention grabbing animation, catchy music and sexy anime girls to lure viewers in and more fell for it hook, line and sinker than understood its narrative.
It's memetic and still a staple for fan art, cosplay and derivative works ever since it was released in 2014.
Women have always inspired and imitated art, but currently it's as though women are competing with art because of hentai (or yaoi in some instances)
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I made the OP. The thread is about people who act shitty in fandom spaces, and the reasons for that behavior. If someone is using shipping as an excuse to sperg out and denigrate others (be it in defense of a ship or in opposition to a ship), it's relevant. Scrotes who chimp out at anything gay are one example of that.
When I wrote the point about "outlandish headcanons," I was referring to when people bastardize the characters beyond recognition, like picrel. Simply changing a character's sexuality usually isn't enough, the person also has to do something ridiculous like make the character a polyamorous pansexual lesbian or something in that vein.
Edit: dropped pic
I read it as appearance first or "This thing is cool and I want it to represent me or to be associated with it"
Iconic status and fan interpretation are more digestible. Gatekeeping is shitty as fuck and I'm not referring to it when I say this, but scenes from Tomie and Uzumaki being sold on t-shirts at Walmart hasn't helped.
NTA, but this is all he said about it>Q: Both Tomie and Uzumaki seem to be about the power of obsession. Does it require a certain level of obsession to draw these kinds of serial manga?>JI: I find that odd, because I've never heard anyone refer to my manga as being about “the power of obsession.” However, when I create my manga, I'm consciously aware of things such as “self-consciousness” and jiko kenjiyoku (the urge or desire to show off). So I think the power of obsession is greatly related. In particular, I suffered from being overly self-conscious when I was younger. That's why “self-consciousness” is a theme that I'm very interested in when I create manga.>However, there's a limit to the amount of material that comes from within yourself, so I do things like read a great deal. In terms of power, people who have a twisted psyches are interested in the past when they used to have power. Or, they're afraid of people who might wield such power in the future.>Q: In my mind, "Tomie" is an unusually powerful and memorable character. How did you come up with the idea for her and how did she evolve as you were drawing the strip?>JI: At first, my concept was to depict the strangeness of a girl nonchalantly going to school, although she was actually dead. The girl is neither a ghost nor a zombie, but just goes to school in her own body, even though she's definitely dead. In developing the story, the character was also developed. The girl was established as an unpopular girl because I thought the story would be more interesting if it featured someone that wasn't likeable.>Tomie's character essentially didn't change. If anything, it was my drawings that developed — they became more beautiful. In changing the personality, it's fine if there's improvement, but there's also the case where the result is worse off because of the change. So it's very difficult to depict different aspects of a character, and there's also the danger of the character become clichéd.
and>Ito: No, I’m afraid there wasn’t a beautiful woman who was the model. When I was in junior high school, a boy in my class died in a traffic accident. It just felt so odd to me that a classmate who was so full of life should suddenly disappear from the world, and I had the strange feeling that he would show up again innocently. Ever since then, I wanted to give expression to that feeling in my manga. That’s how I came up with the idea of a girl who is supposed to have died but then just shows up as if nothing had happened. In real life, it was a boy who died, but I turned her into a girl in the manga.>Ben K: I see. "Tomie" was first serialized in a girl's magazine called Gekkan Halloween 月刊ハロウィン (Monthly Halloween). She manipulates men, drives them crazy, yet comes back to life again and again no matter how many times she is hacked into pieces or killed in any number of violent ways. Why do you think such a character was so popular with the primary audience of girls who read "Tomie" in Gekkan Halloween?>Ito: Well, immortality, never dying, is something I think everyone longs for. At some point, we all wish we could be immortal. But Tomie lives her life completely as she wishes. She's haughty yet she captivates men. I imagine women have this desire to act like a princess. They envy Tomie's freedom, that's what I think…>Ben K: Was there anything confirming that in the fan letters your readers sent?>Ito: Yes, there was. Some girls even wrote that they were aspiring to become Tomie (laughs).
and>Q:Tomie is a character who is truly immortal – not just in the stories she’s in, but in the way she lives on in readers’ minds decades after you first created her. Have there been any fan responses that stand out to you about Tomie over the years – especially from female fans?>A:Tomie is arrogant, a liar, and a monster, yet she’s very beautiful and always has an air of freedom. I found that many female readers connected with the latter qualities. I had fans saying “I want to be like Tomie” which, at first, I thought was a little odd, but I could understand that perspective too. Regardless of the era, I think beauty and freedom are valuable qualities. I see fans on social media cosplaying as her, so it makes me happy as the creator.
If there's something I'm missing, sorry.
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Thanks OP for reminding me why I avoid the western Lupin fandom like the fucking plague. The First movie is so good but lord did it usher in all of these types. I was discussing headcanons like this with a friend of mine (we were also talking about western Lupin III fandom ironically) and how these new fans are always quick to say the thing they're into is actually dogshit (ie picrel).
I genuinely don't understand how as a "fan" you can think like this and have other people in that fandom agree with you. If you don't like it then why are you making fanart and participating in the fandom. Leave it to the people who know the history and enjoy it for what it is. People like Lupin because it's fun and the characters are timeless and shitty top surgery fanart has nothing to do with it.
Does this person seriously think that she has more of a claim to this character than the people who literally created him? This is unhinged. The point of fiction is to create a compelling narrative, not coddle the characters on behalf of a bunch of terminally online schizos.
If she can't talk about it without being laughed at, maybe she should take a hint and realize how fucking ridiculous she's being. The internet is way too tolerant of "kin" bullshit. You're not even allowed to make fun of this unhinged crap without getting dogpiled.>>1382856
The article said she was in college, so late teens or early twenties. Bleak.
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>>1377204>try joining fandom servers/circles that are populated by older people, have age gated salt channels, strict ship hate/discourse rules or all three. If you gatekeep autists hard they can't do anything but flail around in anger
This is how I got back into fandom recently after missing it for a long time. It took a little while to find something that fit and also genuinely interested me, but it's pleasant even if it's very quiet. >>1381744>I find it very interesting when there is basically several fandoms for one media franchise.
This is a pattern I've noticed for years even in smaller fandoms. It's the key to finding enjoyment in larger fandoms containing large amounts of batshittery. I used to ship a pairing that had a small following but made others seethe because both characters had other, more popular ships, but overall we simply said "don't fucking care lol" and had our fun. And that's the culture you want to settle into these days. Easier said than done, but not giving deranged autists an inch when they try to give you shit goes a long way. It's also worth it to seek out something at least a little "problematic
", the people who are also into it are less likely to be no fun allowed spergs. >>1383517>>1385115
Jesus, I never thought I'd live to see the day. Not Lupin…
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Her kinlist is hilarious, too. It includes but is not limited to:>Princess Zelda>Silver from Pokemon>Susie from Deltarune>Homura from Madoka Magica>Louie from Ducktales>Panty from PASWG>Batman
People like this have always existed to be fair, I watched a whole video about a girl talking about how she wanted to kill herself over Ash x Misty from pokemon not being canon.
I feel bad for people like this, but there really is nothing you can do for them.
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i wish more females into fandom were unhinged to the point they drive off men and ruin the source material for them, i remember a year ago a super weird yumejo fandom of the comic Eltingville club formed on 4chan, they all wanted to rape the characters and would spam every thread of the comic with their headcanons, greentext, horny art, and who they wanted to rape the hardest, it came to the point where moids started to complain about it and to this day they consider the threads ruined thanks to the yume spam
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Didn't this also happen with South park basically, but with fujos instead of yumejos.
I unironically love South Park fans. On a cosmic sort of plan South Park yaoi feels like revenge for everytime a man has pushed a woman or a girl out of a fandom space that was originally meant for her. But South Park fujos aren't even spiteful(only in the /co/ threads). They genuinely like these characters and ships that's why they participate in the fandom. Unlike men who says "muh r34 says I have to make porn out of it" whenever they are part of a fandom where they aren't the targeted demographic.
Anyway didn't this also happen to Supernatural? I have never seen it but I have heard that it was originally targeted men and the showrunners got sureprised by how the majority of their viewers where women and men stopped participating in the fandom because of all the yaoi.
Same happened to Hetalia. When the anime was new it did attract the interest of historybros but they immediately lost it because of the yaoi fangirls. But to be fair Hetalia did pander to fujos early on unlike Supernatural and South Park
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Their post about them unironically getting fucking furious at people who don't go full schizo mode when larping as fictional characters is the funniest shit I've read in fucking months.https://macaque.neocities.org/articles/kff.html
In the books at least, Brienne was shown to be attracted to males. If you insist character must be a lesbian "because butch" even with canon heterosexual leanings then it definitely sounds like you think characters in terms of inflexible stereotypes. I'm not saying you do this, it's just the impression you may give to others.
Headcanons can be whatever as long as you don't start thinking that the creators somehow owe it to you to make it canon. A lot of "queerbaiting" complaints are just butthurt shippers trying to make their entitlement seem virtuous and justified.
My favorite genre of salt is scrotes crying because because their shit got taken over by women. Until about ten years ago, fandoms and male showrunners were so hostile to women, so it's nice to see us getting a few wins here and there.
Young Justice got cancelled because teenage girls were the only people who watched it, but they've since brought it back and now there have been a couple of spin-offs. We're just as lucrative a fanbase as scrotes are, and misogyny is the only reason anyone believes otherwise.
Women might not buy as much plastic consoomer crap as men do, but we're free-advertising machines. We make more fanart, we write more fanfic, and we do more cosplay because we're just better at channeling our enjoyment of things into creative outlets.
I love any female fandom that appropriates scrote media and makes moid seethe. The only thing I don't like about them are troon/race/sexuality """headcanons""" but that's more of a recent problem and due to external influence and zoomer brainwashing.
I especially love the ones like the Eltingville Club fags on /co/. I've never read that comic or (sadly) seen those threads in real time, but those women are extremely based. And I love how for these fandoms like South Park, EC, Hetalia, sports anime/manga (they literally made official otome media of Prince of Tennis due to the fanbase), basically anything that wasn't originally meant for women, it doesn't matter if the characters in a piece of media are meant to be hot or not, yumes and fujos will latch on to it anyway.>Same happened to Hetalia. When the anime was new it did attract the interest of historybros but they immediately lost it because of the yaoi fangirls
AFAIK the webcomic, not the anime, initially was classified as having a target demographic of "seinen". I do remember that fact pretty clearly, and that scrotes seethe so much whenever Hetalia is mentioned. I'm so glad that the Hetalia fandom happened even if those were some of the cringiest years of my life I wouldn't change them for anything (though I wish I had made friends online to sperg with). BASED Hetafags for keeping the fandom alive even to this day. I hope it becomes relevant again so I can join in the autism for the nostalgia.tinfoil but I kinda believe the theory that Himaruya is female which might explain the art style and the cute male characters>>1385231
Oh hey what a coincidence.>they all wanted to rape the characters and would spam every thread of the comic with their headcanons, greentext, horny art, and who they wanted to rape the hardest
KEK they are so fucking crazy I love them.
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>>1385605>I've never read that comic or (sadly) seen those threads in real time
i was there to witness it and savour it, i have a crap ton of OC from that thread. A shame it never became a cartoon, we missed on a cringe masterpiece. Just imaginining the unhinged fandom that it could have spawned makes me wish i could live in the AU where Adult Swim picked the show.
to this day, /tv/ scrotes will reee about women ruining supernatural because the showrunners stopped stuffing the show with coomerbait to lure in male viewers. like it's somehow the female fans' fault and they MADE the creators change the show in a particular direction. and even if it was like that, so what? don't they realize a show running for that long has to do at least a little catering if they want to retain the fanbase?
i still remember a schizopost i saw in a supernatural thread on the board (i lurk there every once in a while just so seethe) about how "middle aged" female fans were getting angry dean was a womanizer who kept fucking hot girls, and they wanted roastie representation or whatever, so then the writers changed his character to wanting to settle down and have kids with a woman his age, like lisa.
I think it's pretty fucking obvious that fujos don't give a fuck about those things and only focus on the characters. Same with every other low quality series they form fandoms around, they're just looking for something to ship. Also, in case you weren't aware, their existence does
piss moids off which is a good thing.>>1385824when I was a young fujo I would draw Randy porn though, but I was never part of the fandom, I was just a lone degenerate fujo coomer
South Park has always been obnoxious and that has always been the show's goal. However I do think the show was less 'in your face' in the past. The older South Park fujo stuff is superior to the new fujo stuff anyway hollycomb owns my heart… even if the elements she incoporated into her fics weren't my cup of tea her writing/prose is some of the best I have seen in fanfiction>>1385829>I think it's pretty fucking obvious that fujos don't give a fuck about those things and only focus on the characters. Same with every other low quality series they form fandoms around, they're just looking for something to ship
This sums it up perfectly. While a lot of SP fujos do still follow the show it's obvious they are more invested in the characters than the plot and jokes. I do think some of them genuinely likes the show and finds it funny but a lot of that stems from how attached they have grown to the characters. If you ever see a clip or a quote of the show on tumblr most of the notes are talking how much they love a character, while still acknowledging that the joke was funny.>spoilered text
>>1385873>they act like adult men in the bodies of young boys
I guess this is basically it. The characters looks cute but since they already behave like adults it's much easier to imagine them aged up. and most South Park shippers age the characters up when making shipping content.
And even though the characters do behave in the most deranged manner they are so stylized that it feels less uncomfortable compared to male characters derange behaviour in live-action media.also I hate Butters voice too. He is the worst character and I hate him
Speak for yourself. I generally liked the Randy-centric episodes. They're funny. I love the one where he's trying to fight the other dads at little league baseball games.>>1385873>wholesome
Are you on a different planet? When I was in the fandom I didn't hear anybody say this. I would occasional hear people describing stuff as cute, but typically just things the showrunners intended that way, like Kenny saving up money to buy his little sister a new doll, or Butters trying to be villainous and failing.
Yes, I think this doesn't apply to fujo content only, but to all fanworks in general. I got into Hetalia because I saw some crossover art and jokes about another series I loved at the time.
But of course, as a fujo you're usually looking for more shipping material, and if you see a big fandom that's mostly about that, you're naturally drawn to it. I don't think it's a problem with something like Hetalia because that one feels like it's made to fuel the creativity of the fans, it's a very random series that focuses entirely on the characters being cute and funny and interacting with each other, so the fans barely discussing the canon material doesn't affect anything. But when it happens to a series that has more substance, continuity, and better writing and depth, it's gonna be more difficult for the original fans to find another fan to discuss that with.
How credible is the author because this just looks like a bunch of Twitter screenshots and misconstrued quotes from actual doctors?
In relation to anti vs. proship drama, I find it interesting how proshippers call antis a collective, but antis themselves don't put "anti" in their bio like proshippers do. I just see proshippers calling anyone who criticizes them an anti.
I remember back on Tumblr when people actually would call themselves an "anti" of a ship, but modern teenagers weren't online enough for those times. I feel like only people who remember that still perscribe the term "anti" to people. Now they just use anti to mean any underage person who doesn't like proships. I wish they knew that those teens are not the same as the ones who they argued with on Tumblr, and that they view proship vs anti as a much different thing.
I have seen a good chunk of people with anti on their bio, but you're right pros usuallu are a bit more obnoxious about it (I guess antis bark more about trans and other dumb political stuff because they tend to be the same people).
But in all honesty, I find both groups annoying, wish we could go back to simplu realizing we have different threshold for media.
>>1387896>antis themselves don't put "anti" in their bio like proshippers do.
Racists don't put "racist" in their bios either, nor do homophobes put "homophobe" in their bios. They put in a dogwhistle like "traditional values", just like "antis" put "proships dni".
As an oldfag I can vouch that the pro/antiship discourse existed a decade ago but it wasn't nearly as mainstream as it was during the big Voltron drama in 2018. I get that people think "proships" are a bunch of cringe nutjobs who care too much about dumb internet drama but at one point the entire debacle was so fucking unhinged "antis" were genuinely contacting employers of people who they deemed shipping "problematic
ships" or just spreading baseless rumors about them being a pedophile or a groomer, all due to shipping a ship they didn't like. Or even going as far as harassing show creators. You even saw big name influencers parroting delusions about muh minor coded characters and muh MLM fetishization. It's thanks to the active work of all the twitter accounts documenting this and speaking out about the culture that now the only people who you see being anti-proship are mentally ill 15-year olds who have a panic attack seeing their kinnie kiss the wrong guy after entering a space they don't belong in or are mature enough to handle.
So in other words proships sperged so that you could enjoy the content you do in peace, and after all the prolific "antis" hit the magical age of 18 they realized they didn't automatically stop liking the shit they did at 17 and now have to bear the consequences of the mindset they were supporting. The only way it can be seen from a "both sides are retarded" angle is that proships got too generous with their sanctuary shit and (albeit reluctantly) defended heinous moidshit like lolicon because they were told they'll have to either accept everything or nothing, and because so many of them have swallowed the libfem kool-aid they can't bring up the fact that men commit 99% of sexual crimes and are more likely to re-enact and be influenced by the violent content they see in fiction than women. I know I got hush-hushed for implying that maybe men and women aren't interchangeable and that men are born with a defective chromosome giving them impaired impulse control, so maybe we shouldn't cape for them and their degeneracy.
Which reminds me of the another reason why this is such an important issue to study is that teenagers getting themselves into a cult-like movement are in a very vulnerable position, and in the case of these antis it's about older fans setting them up for grooming or exploitation by telling them they can spot an evil person by their tastes in fiction while everyone who conforms to the "wholesome" image is to be trusted with, or that the end justifies the means so that you can
be racist or homophobic (like the "freaks of color" incident described in that study) if you're just doing it for the "right reasons". We can't forget the fact that for these teenagers their online being is their entire identity they hang on to so for them the fandom bullshit is just as real as any real world issue would be, an anon upthread brought up a good point about the political youth groups and their extremities and that's actually a very good allegory. Teenagers shouldn't be let to join groups like these because the lengths they go to for social acceptance can become very extreme.
Both sides ARE retarded anon. I personally view proshippers as being even dumber, and not for the reason that I don't like certain topics in fiction, but because they act so dramatic over internet harassment that they go as far as to write articles over 14-year-olds who harass them. They dedicate their whole existence to like problematic
content when they really can just shut the fuck up and like what they like in silence. I only see these types of debates in western societies because they want to put an identity on themselves so bad. You don't see problematic
artists from other societies calling themselves "pro-shipper" or "anti". Fiction is so much more nuanced than proship vs antiship.
>teenagers getting themselves into a cult-like movement
What is it with proshippers blowing things out of proportion? These shitty theories only pop up because they view antis as a single collective. They think it's an "us vs. them" deal when in actuality nobody actually cares. If a random person on Twitter calls an incest ship weird, they jump the gun to call them an "anti" when they don't even align themselves with antishipping arguments. They take any anti being racist and say that's the whole group which can be said exactly the same about proshippers. This is why trying to single yourself into a single group is absolutely retarded.
Well, repeating "just shut the fuck up", "why do you even care", "you PWOSHIPPEWS always blow things out of proportions" for three paragraphs in total sure is justified when by this point actual scientific studies around the topic of young people getting roped into communities based on questionable methodology doing life ruination over fictional ships. I get that you would totally tough it out and not give a single shit about people signal boosting a post accusing you of pedophilia but not everyone has that opportunity, especially people who get attacked the most by these people i.e. professional artists who have their real name attached to their portfolio who just happened to like the wrong ship. Or professionals who have their already delicate projects cancelled or funding reversed due to a social media outrage. It's outright dishonest to paint the victims
as "just sick freaks who get mad at people disliking their incest ship" when even shipping childhood friends regularly gets labeled as incestuous.
>I genuinely think proshippers are online too much because in real life, people have so much more nuanced and worthwhile takes on fiction.
What do you think the philosophy of these """proshippers""" is based on then? Pride is the burden of the foolish, make sure you just grit your teeth and power through it when you get dogpiled on for whatever arbitrary, problematic
thing you like or said in 2018 and the reputation of "isn't that the bitch who…" carries on for years. Of course if you're not creating any content this isn't a concern, but the people in charge of giving you things to consoom have to constantly be afraid of being the next one to lose their heads.
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Some probably too bored person wrote this obvious fake post on Reddit a month ago and now it's been shared among so called pro-shippers how this is 100% true and it really happens, lol.
>>1388528>It's outright dishonest to paint the victims
Anon, not all proshippers are victims
. There are just as many bad proshippers as there are antis. This is what happens when people try to group themselves together based on something as broad as proples opinions on the morality behind fiction.
>make sure you just grit your teeth and power through it
This, but unironically. Artists have the power to block these people because the majority of people saying it are just annoying teenagers, who I'm sure is not the audience you want to build in the first place. Artists that do get into drama like the wengchingchen artist only gain more followers after they learn to just say one thing, block, and move on. No one actually cares.
We're not talking about people who claim to be "proshippers" only to force their degeneracy on others which is a situation similar to tradthots calling themselves radfem for hating trannies, but the people who actively do work to raise awareness about how fiction can be enjoyed and what purpose it can serve. The discussion has drawn a lot of attention to why shipping for example is such a quintessential part of the female fandom experience when before it was deemed as a "stupid girl thing" like boy bands or romantic novels.
>Artists have the power to block these people because the majority of people saying it are just annoying teenagers
Only if they were "just annoying teenagers" that had no power over you, but online you can be whatever you want and push the message through the grapevine so hard "she drew a shirtless 17-year old anime character" turns into "she grooms minors for exposing them to her pedo child porn". It's easy to act as if you'd have the mental fortitude not to be bothered by it at all, just like it's easy to say that you'd totally kick a guy in the balls for sexually assaulting you. When the time comes you realize that you're not Sakimichan being supported by billions of fans and bags of money being too big to ever fall, but just someone trying to break it in the industry and only being abandoned by your fanbase for something you could never predict happening.
>only gain more followers after they learn to just say one thing, block, and move on.
By the way, who do you think are the people following these people and speaking out in their support telling the antis they're being unreasonable? The cringe proshippers taking things too seriously, right?
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Yeah, it's MC/Yosuke.
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Ran into this while snooping on a lolcow's tumblr.
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Again, those people need to realize you're not gonna lose your job over something like that, in people in real life don't care as much.
I think proshippers are just an easy target because they make it so open that they're scrotes. They're like lolicons if lolicons actually cared about what others think. At least scrotes like that have the guts to own it and not make it some sort of "oppressed" identity.
Personally I'm pretty sure my boss would dismiss them as being insane contacting him to complain about the fanart I drew but I don't work in the media industry which is all about connections and social credit. If I did, I would have actual reason to fear.
>I think proshippers are just an easy target because they make it so open that they're scrotes.
What? Oh yeah, because scrotes are so occupied with defending women and their gay anime ships.
>At least scrotes like that have the guts to own it and not make it some sort of "oppressed" identity.
That's not a good thing, anon. Men gloating about liking lolishit with zero shame isn't "based". Stop trying to pass women being reasonably offended with being called pedos for liking a teenage anime shounen ship as the same as men normalizing prepubescent kiddy rape porn that they're probably dreaming about taking to real life.
not them but I've run into anti cliques where there's a clear adult pulling the strings in the background trying to protect their little uwu pwecious minors by alerting them to the supposed gross shit for them to attack. that's pretty groomy/culty if you ask me and I doubt the ones I've seen are the only ones.
if there's going to be a convo to be had about antis, if anything a good topic to focus on would be how creepy and weasley the adults in that movement are.
One thing that's always struck me about call out posts and the like is how counter-productive they are.>Look, kids! This terrible person draws this questionable shit! Here's the link/detailed instructions/password so you can look at it, too! LOOK!!!
Like okay retard.
What does that have to do with what I said? Proshippers have the same ideals as lolicons. I wasn't making this a woman vs. man thing. Proshippers and lolicons are two sides of the same coin.>>1388793
I meant that it's easier to block a man who's going on and on about liking loli because he's open about it. A person sperging about proship stuff is just annoying because they like to act like it's something bigger than it is. I'm not saying lolicons are "based", I'm saying that at least they don't pretend that they're doing something righteous.
Arguments like these are always stupid to me because no one is going to agree on anything in fiction. I just thought it was interesting to observe the difference between the two and how they present themselves.
>>1387896>antis themselves don't put "anti" in their bio like proshippers do
They ostensibly do in the form of "proshippers/anti-antis DNI."
Much like >>1387954
, I'm also an unaligned oldfag and have elected to avoid this retarded discourse as much as I reasonably can. From where I'm standing, the antis are the instigators. People have been shipping and drawing degenerate shit for as long as the internet has existed, but this puritanical shit where teenagers use the "sanctity" of shipping as a false pretense to destroy each others' lives is an entirely new animal. Ship wars were a lot more surface-level in the past, and focused primarily on what was likely to be "endgame canon," which characters were the most attractive, who had the best chemistry, etc. People certainly treated each other like shit, but at least they weren't pretending it was for any higher purpose.
Not to sound all paranoid of the youths or whatever, but it's kind of sad that young people, who are supposed to be rebellious, are instead wholeheartedly embracing the same ideological principles responsible for McCarthyism and Satanic Panic. Fiction is how people investigate complex moral questions in a realm where it can't cause direct physical harm to others. Of course it can affect reality, but the responsibility for that does not and should not fall on the creator. J.D. Salinger isn't responsible for the man who shot John Lennon, yet for some reason, The Catcher in the Rye is frequently banned while guns remain entirely legal. Art can be inspired by crime, certainly, but it's not to blame for the criminality of others.
If the creation process directly involved/required abuse (i.e., child porn, crush videos, etc,) then it should obviously be illegal. Drawings though? That should just be a matter of social etiquette; if someone draws something degenerate, they should be prepared for social fallout. But doxing their family members and getting them fired is fucking ridiculous. I don't give a shit if the guy who sold me insurance likes to draw bestiality porn in his spare time. Like yeah I wouldn't want to be friends with him, but I don't think it warrants ruining to his fucking life either.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with just quietly blocking someone who posts shit you don't like and moving the hell on? Okay, sure, if their degeneracy is entertaining and cowish, you can post about them here for a laugh. But chimping out and a-logging somebody over some stupid drawings is a retarded way to respond.
NTA but men aren't often socialized to have shame, of course they're perfectly content to be fucked up in the open. The social consequences for failing to conform are much greater for women because we're told to value the opinions and feelings of others above all else.
Again, I don't align myself with any of these retards, but it's an oversimplification to describe it as "two sides of one coin." I would describe it more as, "lolicon is the philosophy of proshipping taken to its logical extreme." Proshippers just sperg about about how they don't want to be harassed over shipping teenagers, whereas lolicons are adult neckbeards who wank to realistically-rendered children with giant anime heads. Like… they're similar but clearly not the same thing.
AYRT, I think your explanation of it makes more sense anon, thank you. I had never really viewed it in that way.
I suppose my point was more on, if you are an artist who draws content that is incestuous or pedophilic, then you can't really be mad if people call you a weirdo. Of course, I agree to call someone a pedophile over it is extreme, but throwing a hissy fit over teenagers online "ratio-ing" or QRTing you on Twitter only calling you a freak is so strange to me.
And not to blogpost, but again, I used to be a proshipper back on Tumblr, but I feel like I've grown too much out of it. I keep to myself on my ships and don't associate with either side. I've found that doing that makes your experiences online so much better. Being a proshipper was less about "muh anti-queer censorship" propaganda like they say now, and more just about wanting to ship whatever you want. I feel like they need to take a page from non-western artists' books and just not put proshipper in their bio and block whoever they feel necessary rather than embarrassing themselves by unnecessarily aligning with a group of people.
You having a chip on your shoulder about your pesonal fandom drama in some tumblr community when you were 16 doesn't discount the fact that the entire inspiration of the proship movement is based on a reaction against the harassment people get for doing something that's completely their own business and ultimately very harmless. Acting as if it's "the same thing as lolicons" is such an off the wall comparison to make when the point is the forced moral outrage concerning fiction women write for whatever reasons they might have, pedos muddying the waters saying "oh yeah we're totally
anti-antis, let us have our loli porn!" are not the focal group whose rights they're trying to preserve.
>>1388941>Proshippers and lolicons are two sides of the same coin.
that is the most retarded centrist opinion i've ever read. there have been several court cases around loli for christ's sake. loli and shota literally have legal boundaries because of how harmful they are. if it's two sides of the same coin, you would see nations making bans on fanfiction and shipping. men use loli as a substitute for real kiddy porn. do you think tweens shipping, say, sebaciel also fantasize about raping little boys? and do you think they sometimes realize these fantasies? because that is the case with lolicons.>>1389034>lolicon is the philosophy of proshipping taken to its logical extreme
this take is bullshit as well. lolicon and shipping have inherently different purposes. lolicon is made by men actively trying to work around CP laws. their "philosophy" is just a desire to fuck kids, if CP laws didn't exist then lolicon would eventually become obsolete and the ones who seek it out would start jerking it to real CP instead. do you think the same could be said for proshippers? do you think if CP laws didn't exist, the women who produce and consume fan content of questionable ships would go on to act out their supposedly pedophilic desires elsewhere? no.
Here's an interesting article on fandom psychology. The author's other article "How I was cancelled by Doctor Who" touches on the same topic.https://unherd.com/2021/02/the-toxic
Okay let's try this againhttps://unherd.com/2021/02/the-toxic
Calm down Anon, no one's taking it as serious as you. Lolicons and proshippers both are pornsick to any outside viewer, one just tries to moralize it. You won't change my mind.
I'm talking more on art and the annoying people who boast about liking shota and loli. I'm not getting that deep into it. I just think boasting on twitter about being into problematic
stuff is weird and worthy of being blocked. You don't have to sperge out on rants over my observation. I don't care what people write in fanfiction, I'm looking at it on the surface. No matter what is said, I really don't think it's that deep.
i love anons who can't cope with getting pushback on their opinions so they just convince themselves it's all a single person samefagging. take your meds.>it's not that deep stop criticizing me waah you can't change my mind anyway!!1
this is a thread discussing the psychology of fandom drama. the purpose is literally to over-analyze meaningless internet discourse, which you probably knew going in. now you're just posting non-contributing nonsense, deflecting any criticism and trying to backpedal on your hyperbolic and retarded statements because not everyone agreed with them, while simultaneously contributing to a deeper discussion yourself by encouraging going into how lolicons and proshippers have the same ~philosophy~ or whatever. sorry not everyone found your "observations" correct or agreed with that dumbass analysis.
I couldn't tell you why, but something about shipping just brings out the turbo sperg in people. If I were to speculate, I'd say that people become emotionally invested in the ships to a parasocial degree, which is how they justify acting insane in defense of their OTPs or whatever.
Pro/anti discussion is probably just common in this thread because it's arguably the biggest ongoing fandom controversy right now. I'm sure if this thread was made fifteen years ago, recolors would be the dominant topic.
Nta but i agree with you. As someone who used to be in mixed weeb spaces: lolicons and proshippers think the same. They even share the same points on their essays defending their fetish, you just don't read them because they usually post on facebook groups, discords and forums while proshippers post on twitter and Tumblr.
However, even if technically it's the same ideology the behavior between groups is quite different. Lolicons (mostly males) tend to level up their fetish once they ran out of Loli porn (i've seen this countless times) and proshippers (mostly females) tend just create more content once they ran out of porn. The "level up the fetish" mindset is why lolicons end up consuming actual cp, either by tracing it or actually jerking off at it. Also males are obsessed with the "realism" on their porn and that's an slippery slope that makes them consume more extreme porn while women don't care.
Anon's defense is pathetic. If i could find the essays that lolicons post defending their fetish (in English) i would post it. Once you read it you can't deny the obvious. However i agree the efects aren't the same, but that's just because the differences between male and female sexuality. Not because proshippers are more virtuous, it's all about a fetish after all.
Same. I had a goth oc who was a black and grey recolor of Cream the Rabbit, and I used to love watching recolor videos for some reason. I remember getting into t.A.T.u. because a recolor video I liked used one of their songs.
I also remember seeing a lot of recolor rants and watching those just because I thought the discourse was interesting. Maybe that's why I got into lolcows later lmao.
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I got lucky tbh. I initiated conversation with the right person and got invited into a private discord with a small group passionate about the same thing. Sometimes all it takes is you chatting with someone who seems like they're on the same wavelength as you. I somehow managed this through tumblr via fandom tags. Could always try to find someone that way or contribute to said tags to pull in like-minded people. Might even build a small, tidy group up that way if you keep at it. As cringe as it was, simply being an active participant of the ship mentioned in >>1385145
and being forthcoming in talking about it drew people in. There's a chance there are other less spergy fans of your ship also lurking, so maybe try to do your own thing and see what happens. Also, If there are fanfic authors for your ship that seem cool, comment on their stuff and get a rapport going.
My method of finding a space like this was digging around fandoms for stuff that was 15+ years old. That way I knew there was likely an older audience, it'd be quieter, and the discourse would be minimal or easily avoided. Age of a property is not a guarantee of avoiding dumbasses but I think it helps.
Best of luck, anon. I hope you find or create a fun space for yourself.
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Don't care for proship vs anti drama but I have to roll my eyes everytime I see a fanfic author writing something they know is taboo then acting shocked about the backlash. Once I saw some fanfic writer complaining about how they were getting bullied for a shota smut fic they wrote.
you're writing pedo porn, why are you so surprised? even if it was a non fandom fic you would still get backlash for it.
On another note I completely understand people getting annoyed at kids who have no understanding of love/romance writing think pieces about why xyz ship is abusive
. completely understand why people write minors dni, i never understood why there's backlash putting that on your profile. adults talking to minors online regularly is more dangerous than adults blocking them all. >>1389756
it's a mixture of that, entitlement over another person's story and the need to be proven right. e.g. to this day zutara shippers are still writing paragraphs explaining how the writers sabotaged their ship and it was supposed to be canon. why does canon matter when you can read fanfics? it's been over a decade.
>>1390732> Once I saw some fanfic writer complaining about how they were getting bullied for a shota smut fic they wrote.
i dont care about shota but shota/loli tards have such a victim
complex, they should block the retards and move on
Reminds me of a time in an old fandom where some fandom police found someone's rape fic of a semi-popular pairing and decided to draw the entire fandom's attention to it. The fic was cringe ass OOC tripe and author had shit taste, but they had the decency to tag the fic properly and keep it out of the main fandom tags (which calls into question how it was found in the first place, I really do think they seek this stuff out). I, and probably everybody else in the fandom for that matter, would have never known this fic existed if not for the call out and would have rather kept it that way, but as cringe as the fic was I don't put the blame on the author for that because they had basic manners about it.
This was retarded discourse in the fandom for a few weeks at least, with the discourse split 50/50 between people on the call out poster's side, and people who felt the way I did. All because some tardlet for some god forsaken reason needed to put it on blast.
I can't believe this was almost 6 years ago. Time flies.
I was in several "anti" communities as a teenager on Discord. I felt evil for enjoying problematic
media, fearing telling any of "my friends" anything possibly incriminating about myself. I left only after a long time, realizing that if I feared for everything I said around them, they aren't my friends, and I'll never be/want to be the perfect "anti". All being in the anti camp told me was "Be always morally perfect by never saying anything thats not polite. Never falter, and your friends know much better than you."
Parasocial relationships meddle the whole pro/anti debate more than the actual shipping. People in these spaces aren't potential friends or comrades, but a teenager may believe they are if they’re lonely and inexperienced. Friends are only made when you both feel confortable being vunerable to each other in even a small way, which can't achieve when you don't feel safe being yourself, because if you do, then you may go against the group at large even unintentionally. Doxing and threats happen, but the main fear is social ostracizarion. Its hard to argue with twenty-somethings who truly believe in what they're saying when you're young. It's why many leave the camps entirely when they participate more in offline communities. Even now in the workplace I struggle with the moral unclarity and unforgiving nature of what being "anti" demanded. I got kicked (effectively banned, many members really disliked me after this) from one of these groups and that changed my life from then on out. Because it was an online-only thing, I feared telling people I knew personally or a therapist that this greatly distressed me and ruined my social life for a time because I must clearly be exaggerating things and lol get off the computer, so I only have recently.
The debacle is overblown but at least proshippers allow teenagers to breathe and be retarded.
This particular story is obviously fake as fuck but it's combined of elements that happen in real life. Even people commenting on this are talking about how they saw things like this unfold in their lives and I personally have witnessed 14-year olds harassing their peers online and spreading their handles making up rumors about them being a 15-year old rapist pedophile while making it obvious there's some adult puppeteering their actions, a lot of them come from broken homes with little to no supervision and have their entire lives revolve online while yearning from validation and attention from their seniors. It's really sad and there are many stories of these kids years later coming out telling how someone was grooming them when they were underage and they only later realized what was happening. >>1391297
It's honestly bewildering to see anons on lolcow say they used to be part of the anti grouping since I'm like in my 30's and in my teenage years this just wasn't an issue (at least to this scale), but the unforgiveness and black and white thinking really must fuck your behavioral patterns up especially seeing how young so many participants are. I don't know where the "you must agree on everything with your friends and never upset them" thing came from because, like you said, true friends have enough patience to work through your disagreements, but it does seem like the immature teenage social games taken to an extreme. A zoomer friend of mine once told me that she can't enjoy the perfectly PG media she does out in the open and has to have a separate anonymous account for that because she's too afraid of her friends cancelling her for its "problematic
" content or ships and that just sounds insane to me, to treat people around you as stepping stones for moral superiority. But as a young person social connections are so important because you're just learning to set boundaries and often can't.
BNFs aka Big Name Fans have been around far longer than that. One of the most infamous ones in the internet era is Cassandra Claire/Clare, a bnf in the Harry Potter fandom in the early-mid 2000s. But yeah, most if not all of them are clowns and use their followers to rally against anyone they dislike. >>1392393
A lot of antis seem to also fall under the "a character saying or believing something problematic
also means the author or creator is problematic
" umbrella. It's like they have zero critical thinking skills and don't want anything questionable in media even if it's a reflection of reality. I would never condone a relationship between a 16 yo and 19 yo irl, but it is something that happens and no one is hurt when it is explored in fiction.
I'm behind them when it comes to truly repulsive shit people write about, but the inane bullshit they fixate on when it comes to shipping makes me dislike them and want to shove them off their high horse.
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When it comes to proship vs. antiship, I feel like the genshin fandom is the loudest about it currently. There are so many asinine debates about ships and characters that I can barely interact with the fandom without a single fight starting.
On the topic of that, while I do see a lot of annoying 14 year old antis, I found this 14 year old proshipper, and it just solidifies in my mind that minors shouldn't be involved in any debate of ships, whether it be on the side of proshipping or antishipping. This user dilucseggs has over 20k followers on TikTok, and is a self-proclaimed proshipper. They have an NSFW account that (despite saying no adults can follow) they still allow adults to follow. They have multiple people with "18+ only" in their bio who rally behind them in support. It's disgusting to me, and I understand that all teenagers go through this phase of drawing NSFW, but posting it on Twitter and allowing adults to exploit you like this is horrible.
>just don't interact in a weird way
How does an adult interact with NSFW a minor posts in a non-weird way? Proshipping is almost entirely about freedom to write what you want, but a lot of the content is problematic. This is no space for a minor whatsoever, yet all of their tweets about proshipping and pedophilic ships blow up.
Considering the ship is kaeluc they're calling themselves proship because the antis consider it incest and will actively harass people for even showing a hint of it.
That being said, minors actively drawing NSFW is something you can't stop but I wish we could report minors for openly having a NSFW account. Teens are dumb but sometimes they need to be protected against themselves.
Why does everyone keep getting it wrong
Agreed, Twitter should definitely have a report button for minors who are posting NSFW content.
But for Genshin, I feel like I see the most proship vs. anti debates (at least on twitter) in their fandoms currently. It's less about having critical discussions, but more just about which ship is bad and which ship is good. I think that's where the whole "minor-coded" thing comes in, which I find incredibly stupid. The game has no confirmed ages, so you'll get discourse over every single ship under the sun. And it doesn't help with the translations being different for each languages, making people interpret ships in entirely different ways. The Genshin fandom is a case study in its own.
Kaeluc, while I agree aren't brothers, I feel like a majority of their fans have an incest fetish. I don't care about people who like the relationship for their development and backstory, or people who actually understand the sworn brothers concept, but people who use the other translation yet still boast about it being incest are weird.
I'm not going to cast the first stone because I sure as hell was drawing porn when I was 14 due to being a horny teenager but kids shouldn't be doing this out in the open outside of their peers, you can tell adults to fuck off and not interact but that's like telling people not to steal your wallet and then leave it unguarded on the table. It's going to happen anyway and eventually someone will make their way in. I think twitter allows you to report accounts like this though. >>1392600
Genshin is just the biggest thing now so it's going to attract people from all walks of life. The overwhelming majority barely play the game and just know it via memes, especially the underage ones since they don't have the capital to be able to play a gacha game to its fullest extent. Genshin is rather f2p friendly but I feel like a lot of these kids never post about the events, new story chapters, characters outside of butchered meme portrayals or the gameplay in general.
>people who use the other translation yet still boast about it being incest are weird.
I feel like they're doing it just to be edgy and/or to troll people calling them brothers, at least the people I see calling them "brotherwives" etc are doing it as an ironic joke. The people who have a genuine fetish for incest seem to be pretty rare and for most they're in it just for shock value.
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>>1392724>hell was drawing porn when I was 14 due to being a horny teenager
Same here, I don't blame teenagers for making this content. I think it's more troubling when they're being egged on by adults to produce it. It's disingenuous for this person to claim they're not sharing it with adults and then are being followed by many "minor dni 18+" accounts and allowing them to follow their nsfw account(>>1392530 ). But this is something I don't feel comfortable blaming the teen for, and more so the people following them and engaging in their content. Kids don't have the brains for this stuff. Proshipping is just an adult topic to me, which is why even engaging in arguments with minors about it is dumb in my opinion.
or they just judged based off the tags. which is cow behavior in itself but if you make something tagged lolicon & smut etc no amount of dead dove do not read is gonna stop people from reeing at you.
i feel like people who fall in that category either have no self awareness or have a victim
complex like anon mentioned. they shouldn't even engage in fandom discourse.
the arguments pro shippers use already sound like how women defend irl degenerate moids>this character couldn't be raped because they love their partner>age of consent is low over there>rape is their kink though
coupled with their toxic
positivity and ship or die attitudes they're really insufferable
the problem with the genshin fandom is that it has an annoying mix of dumb teenagers with dumb headcanons and actual degenerates. there was a time the antis kept reeing about lumine/aether being underage and calling any ship fanfics with them pedophilia until their backstory was revealed kek. Then there's the lolicons in the fandom thanks to the game pandering to them.
I was dumb enough to fight about the lumine/aether thing a year ago but now I just ignore them. It's kinda embarrassing arguing with kids online. It's funny watching people brag about being able to whale/spend money to make the teen fans seethe though. that entire fandom is a nuclear waste dump.
NTA but paki-chan isn't a scrote, she's just deranged with an obsession for fujos and headcanoning them as porn-addicted pedos because not the perfect tradwife waifus like her. As for this >>1393760
claim, people ITT using typical anti lingo and trying to not-too-subtly paint proshippers as pedophile apologists is pretty textbook behavior.
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New shitstorm just dropped kek:
So tumblr is banning lolicon art. cue the response from antis and proshippers
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samefagging: the state of tumblr, proshippers they will get raided by police because of this rule
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a proshipper saying the pic above gave them an anxiety attack.
my take is why the assumption from both sides that proshippers are responsible for this? tumblr is not like an ao3, they're a company. they probably did this avoid getting a bad rep from the media and future buyers.
Why are you still pushing this narrative that it's actually the "proshippers" caping for lolicons and not coomer moids that found a workaround for their child porn fetish? Occam's razor, Paki-chan.
Even from the screenshots here you can see that the issue is these antis abusing resources by reporting peoples' ships as child porn when it's not, i.e. shit like My Hero Academia ships. Crying wolf on their part became a huge problem to the point federal agencies actually put out a notice that people should only
report actual child sexual abuse/child porn cases because they're legally required to investigate every last one of them while they could spend that time doing something that matters instead of eyeballing some Tumblr user's anime teenager art.
NAYRT, but I dont think you understood their post. They're not accusing anyone of anything. They're just relaying the info.>>1397402
They most definitely shouldn't be reporting this to the police, but I get the site not wanting this kind of content there. It isn't a good look at all. It is probably because of what Anon said >>1397409
i suspect twitter ended up with elon because they had so much porn on there no wanted to touch them.
i think this might end up decreasing the people reporting to the police, because they'll just use a tumblr report for it.
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That probably depends on which platform you’re using. I dropped tumblr fandoms for a few years because I was tired of the shipping and noticed that 4chan and reddit don’t give two shits about shipping and instead focus on speculation and lore which is what I want out of fandom.
A few years ago i remember seeing a post this basically boils down to “female fans create transformative works to show their love while males curate “ or something to that effect I thought it was such a bs explanation because I’m a woman and I prefer the “curative” fan experience I guess.
This is the closest thing I could find? I’m not sure if this is the op and someone ripped it to tumblr or if the op here saw the discussion on tumblr. The original tumblr post had so many essay like replies tho
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instead of going straight to a csa or police tip line, they just file it as a tumblr violation like gore, spam or bots because they have an option for it now.>>1397452>4chan and reddit don’t give two shits about shipping and instead focus on speculation and lore which is what I want out of fandom.
have you not seen their meltdown over waifu wars and harem endings kek?
No, because I’m not into harem or waifu anime. I’m talking about things like the legend of Korra or attack on titan. On 4chan I only went to /co/ anyway so I avoided moid shipping wars, yes I know that /co/ is filled with waifu threads but I can hid it.
I remember with LoK people were straight up only talking about shipping and with AOT if I it wasn’t reeeing about how the anime is neo-nazi propaganda then the majority were hyper-fixating on Levi and Erin and I just wasn’t interested since the world of AoT had so much mystery and I wanted to see discussions about that.
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I found another post, it’s not the one I was thinking about and it’s related to the dominance of yaoi shipping, I love the ping pong game that happened
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Drst has terfs dni on her blog what a transformation
I don’t really get why yaoi absolutely dominates but I think it’s a mixture of horny teenage girls, the male characters being more interesting than female characters (even until now), and internalised misogyny
I guess just a tldr version of the screenshots
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evangelion was a way for Anno to reflect on himself, his unability to make genuine human connections or have any confidence in his abilities. He resented hikikomori culture and made the "end of evangelion" to make fun of chronically online evafags.
But fans prefer buying the dumbest shit (picrel is an Evangelion Bowling Pin Cosplay) and arguing to know WhO iS bEsT GiRl.
evangelion shaked my world when I was 14 and now i can't say i love the show bc of dumbass anime fans who ruin everything they touch with their greasy hands
I swear the "guys only focus on lore and story and things that matter!" is the new internet age version of "guys have less drama!". Like >>1397466
said scrotes have extreme meltdowns over their waifus being interested in another male character, the wrong girl being picked in the end or a gay relationship between the male main character being implied, they're not at all exempt from "shipping drama". If anything, they're even more unhinged about it because male aggression makes them have less impulse control. But of course because they're muh rational sex they totally discuss deep intellectual subjects.
Also I don't know why anon thinks shipping and being interested in discussing the story is somehow mutually exclusive, literally every shipper that I follow also posts long textwalls about the lore and their interpretations of it. Then again I don't follow literal teenagers who don't even watch the show and only like the ships because of their ~aesthetics~.
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>>1397617fucking kek I saw the holes and thought of the soyjak face. Very fitting for the kind of person who would consoom that shit>>1397788
NTA but how was it a ripoff?>>1397813>"guys only focus on lore and story and things that matter!" is the new internet age version of "guys have less drama!"
NTA either but it's been acknowledged in fandom that moids do tend to prefer discussing canon and lore and that women tend to prefer creating transformative works and characters instead of just
discussing canon, and there's nothing wrong with that. Wording it like "guys only
focus on the actual story and girls only
fight over imagined character relationships" is a gross misinterpretation of that statement. https://fanlore.org/wiki/Transformational_Fandom
The fact is that not all moids in fandom stick to discussing canon and not all of them are waifufags or shippers, in many cases the former look down on the latter. This sentiment doesn't seem to exist or be very noticeable in the female side of fandom, where discussing lore and characters and creating transformative fan works are not seen as mutually exclusive at all (except among pickme NLOGs who hate those "fujoshits" and worship moid opinions).
Agree that sometimes it can get a bit tiring when discourse relates mostly about shipping, especially when you’re not that interested in it. But imo this anon >>1397813
is right in that >literally every shipper that I follow also posts long textwalls about the lore and their interpretations of it
It isn’t exclusive at all.
I’m not much of a ship enthusiast myself but sometimes it’s fun to gush about one that you think is hot or interesting. I do think people who view everything through a coomer shipping lense and arent actually interested in the story for other purposes are kind of brain damaged and can be annoying but those extreme examples aren’t that common imo, most just love the story and characters so much that they go ballistics over them which often includes shipping. Anyway what I wanted to say is that people who constantly complain about others enjoying media different than them instead of being the change that they want to see are as annoying as the people they seethe about, there will never
be a fandom or space or whatever where you will not encounter something that you hate, never.
I mostly agree with the textpost in >>1397497
not because I think women should be writing anything other than whatever they personally enjoy but I'm irritated by all the fake ass reasons you always see for why m/m is so popular because it's rare the writers of it will be honest that they just want to fantasize about two guys fucking, they have to frame it behind all of these other stupid reasons. Like I remember seeing some stupid sarah z video about fanfiction that mentioned that femslash was incredibly unpopular despite most ao3 users reporting being "queer", so there were all the typical meme fake reasons as to why that's the case but lmao, the simple answer is that it's straight women writing what straight women want to see, they're putting themselves in this justification corner because they don't want to be honest. Like, keep writing and enjoying your yaoi, but when I see women who love to advertise that they're soooo queer and love women so much but never ever write anything with or about them what am I supposed to assume? Straight or internalized misogyny
>>1377204>try joining fandom servers/circles that are populated by older people, have age gated salt channels, strict ship hate/discourse rules or all three.
Yeah this. One of the very few good discords I ever joined is 18+ and has "if you found any meme deemed highly offensive, then ignore it or pm to the mods, no whining" as one of its first rules.
I joined a brand new discord some year ago where they legit let everybody name the themes and words that trigger
them to make a list out of it and prohibit any mention of anything listed in there. It contained shit like "monster" "blood" and other general stuff so I instantly noped out.
Fandoms should filter more. If someone is so damn sensitive that they cannot stomach 50% of the words in a dictionary then maybe they shouldn't talk to groups of people in the first place and get a therapist. It's not our job to make everybody feel comfortable who cannot tolerate other people and interests around them.
Nowadays some fandom members think the internet was their private room and try to control what other fans are allowed to post, like and think.
I remember crazies on tumblr that would legit search through the tag of their favorite characters all day and seethe over every post that dared to make fun of them or headcanon something they didn't agree with. They think they owned the characters, even ignored canon because they "understand them better" than the writers.
Also, if someone is a kinny, run away.
Teens were never factually excluded from fandoms they just weren't officially accepted and so we all shut up in the good old days and enjoyed our porn in silence without demanding anything. I agree otherwise, they shouldn't accept kids. The kids that have a brain will know how to access shit and do it, but they need to stop to try to rule over the fandom and tell adults what they are allowed to do.
I swear it's all puritans with helicopter parents that want to be part of the club but get traumatized if they see a drawn dick the first time. I genuinely wish there was a 18+ art- or fandom-centered website that would otherwise be like tumblr. And you have to confirm you are 18+ so everybody that whines about porn and calls it harmful for kids afterwards reveals that they lied and will get banned.
Not sure if possible but I wish it be like an image board topicwise, in which off topic shit would get deleted. It's impossible to scroll through all the fanart of the people you follow because everybody reblogs endless random shit that floods my timeline when ALL I want is fanart.
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What's up her ass? The post is unnecessarily mean. I agree that a lot of F/F avocation is performative like >>1400468
said, but that's a symptom of a larger issue pressuring girls to be overly concerned about others problems if they recognize it as an issue. There's not much you can do other than informing girls who do this without realizing in a way that's not with bold text and finger pointing (jesus).
It's not like moid media creators make finding their Female characters interesting easy. For example, the pic is of a Pokemon character I really like in fanfiction. She ticks off boxes that make me interested because she's not a stick-thin anime woman/girl, which personally isn't alluring in it of itself.
Pokemon's a good case study for why drst's post is inaccurate. It has a good amount of both sexes, but there are less Female characters as opposed to Male ones, and ones that are there just aren't as dynamic with others. Girls/women in media are often too open about themselves, even when suggested they're more insular like in real life. This difference in what a media creator suggests is their intent with a Female character VS what they actually do, because they want Males to coom over them, draws girls away from them without knowing exactly why they're doing that. Particularly open characters aren't often written about in fanfiction, which examines more of the characters' insecurities and curiosities (different from extroverted; think uncompassionate and forgettable.) It's also their limited body types. In Pokemon in particular there's almost no body type differences (aside from height) between two women aside from picrel.>>1400747>>1400764
You two both want LiveJournal's fandom architecture. If only Dreamwidth were more active… It was created to replace LiveJournal but no one went on that ship for whatever reason.
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I generally hate every fan that is obsessed with other fans' opinions. They never get that they are just as annoying as the people they are angry about.
This isn't the only case, but to name something recent I have an online friend who constantly vents about other fans calling her favorite character bad.
I am in the same fandom and never even witnessed this and when I ask her where she sees that hate she claims she was seeing this a lot without specifying anything. Maybe it was years ago and these people left the fandom by now, not sure.
Thing is she will rant about this endlessly and accuse all haters of her fav fans of some other characters she just assumes these people are. Then she will post hate against said other characters for hours and call their fans hypocrites for liking them but not her husbando and it seems like she gets at least one rage attack a day because of that.
I always try to explain why I think there isn't as much hate (I have seen almost 0) and that the haters might not be fans of the few characters she thinks are the root of all evil but to no avail. She doesn't realise that she's spewing more hate than whatever real or imaginary fan of dude-she-doesn't-like might have said once. And fandoms are full of people like her.
I genuinely these people are suffering from some condition because it's not normal to tremble in hate because someone criticized your fav somewhere on tumblr once. And I also think it's not a good sign if they fail to see how biased they are while they are calling everybody else biased. This person is 27 years old btw.
I hate that we cannot just discuss characters and their mistakes and cool parts anymore without fans and haters losing their damn shit over it.
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Troons ruined every single fucking fandom, i swear. I wish i could back in time and warn the 00's fujos that they were going to become more ostracized than pedophiles for liking anime men kissing eachother.
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NTA, here's this 2013 post about the possible reasons for the lack of lesbian ship fic (pic related): https://centrumlumina.tumblr.com/post/59705055745/a-chart-illustrating-all-of-the-possible
AO3 census (2013): https://centrumlumina.tumblr.com/post/62895609672/ao3-census-about-you
2008 LJ poll: https://wisdomeagle.livejournal.com/931805.html
Collection of different surveys from 2003 to 2008: https://melannen.dreamwidth.org/77558.html
(this seems to prove that most slashers are "queer" but that's not the same as lesbians being a huge percentage. In these surveys, lesbians are still a minority inside the "queer" group, with bisexuals being a majority)
2019 survey: https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/fansplaining/viz/TheFansplainingShippingSurveyResults/Welcome
As you can see, lesbian women are always a minority, while bisexual (male or female leaning) women are as common or nearly as common as straight women. A lot of women who identify as lesbians write m/m, but they still write it less than bi or straight women. Thus we can conclude that the vast majority of female m/m writers (and probably readers as well) are attracted to men.
(Needless to say, in recent years it's difficult to tell whether the "male", "asexual", "queer", "pansexual", "non-binary" or "transgender" respondents are actually just straight, lesbian or bi women, for obvious reasons, but I think it'd be pretty safe to say that the actual demographics haven't changed much)
IMO, the main reasons for the popularity of m/m are the same as the ones >>1397497
listed.>>1400835> I wish i could back in time and warn the 00's fujos that they were going to become more ostracized than pedophiles for liking anime men kissing eachother.
You know, I've been thinking about this.
Women are harshly criticized for "fetishizing gay men" when we are, for the most part, not attracted to real life gay males and don't like to think about real gay men having sex. We also don't think we can turn them straight, the most we do if we happen to be attracted to a gay moid is wish he wasn't gay and that's it. Is there any risk of a woman raping a gay man to "cure him of his homosexuality"? Of course not. Women also don't spam yaoi at gay men to bother them (the only fujos who annoy gay men with yaoi are particularly unhinged/autistic 14 year olds and I haven't heard of such a case in about a decade) or write conversion therapy fics en masse to offend gay men.
Meanwhile, scrotes actually do fetishize lesbian women all the fucking time. "Lesbian porn" is made for males to fantasize about fucking two women who also fuck each other for his viewing pleasure. The vast majority of moids would never in a million years fake being into men to attract women. Males rape lesbian women, and a lot of non-rapists don't even think women are truly capable of not being attracted to men at all. They always say that lesbian women will change their minds when they get "a good dicking". Moids flooded AO3, a website predominantly used by women, with corrective rape fics.
We're not nearly on the same level, and fujos absolutely do not deserve all the hate. Moids do though, and that includes pedotroons.
Anti fujo types will obviously never admit it, but it all comes back to them being NLOGs.
Starting off, it's not a coincidence that a shit ton of them are fakebois who are desperate to get men (especially gay men) to like them and enjoy putting other women down and policing them due to this. They have an issue in which they constantly project onto anime characters (I'm a smol uke uwu) and hence start to view every non batshit woman making shipping fanart of fictional characters as art of 'themselves' this also goes hand in hand with 'kinning' culture or whatever. Back to the male worship though, you pretty regularly notice posts from fakebois talking about how much they'd 'worship' their would be boyfriend it's honestly fucked up how hard these women have either deluded themselves or gaslight themselves so hard into basically becoming pearl clutching housewives.
On top of that, men are so disgusting that they openly parade their degenerate ass fetishes while the majority of women (especially in fandom) are shy on some level even about things like enjoying BL, this makes them an easy target for harassment by fakeboi types (who also generally like BL and are also ashamed of it for some reason) because they have such huge issues with projecting onto others, at the end of the day though, they can't project onto a scrote since they know they're not one deep down.
The studies conducted in the 00's are questionable to a degree because a.) the reach was terrible b.) BL particularly wasn't as widely known in the west as it is now, most things that were seen as "fujo content" were actually just shoujo. Curiously in the only recent questionnaire you posted (the 2019 one) lesbians in the shipping fandom are almost as common (~14%) as straight women (~20%) while bisexuals are the overwhelming majority at 42%. I also like to think that there's a certain distinction between the demographics interested in shipping and the one consuming BL/gay media as a genre since plenty of straight shippers just enjoy shipping characters and not really indulging in original BL/gay content, much less creating it. It's based on my personal observations since this is a thing that isn't studied a whole lot and the results remain very inconsistent, in some others the prevalence of lesbian participants has been as high as 30%.
However this goes on to prove that shipping is an universally female experience and as we know, women aren't monoliths, so there's as many reasons as there are participants. For some it's just because they don't want any female competition for their sexymen, but generally I don't personally believe the trend in the interest in m/m shipping to be a case of internalized misogyny except for self-inserting aydens who are told that they're actually a gay man for enjoying a female portrayal of a male character, but for many others it's the exoticism of the setting allowing further escapism. I'm not personally interested in reading about straight relationships because I'm too far blackpilled about their nature and good non-coomer F/F couples are extraordinarily rare to the point I just create my own, so M/M ships written by women are just the best stop for both romantic and erotic content serving the female gaze. I'd imagine this is the case for a lot of women. In short it's not about internalized misogyny, it's about the absolute boredom with heteronormativity that we see in our everyday lives since birth and looking for an alternative to it.
>>1401069>The people whining about the lack of good female characters / femslash in fanfic should become the change they want to see anyways.
Yes! If the desperation is so bad to the point of hostility, then spend a few bucks on commissions or else start learning how to draw/write. You have the same access to resources and platforms as fujo artists.
Also, I've seen some f/f shippers (as an example, the one from the tumblr post above) blaming fujoshis for the lack of content and demanding specifically them to instead make the f/f content.
It's a weird logic to me. It feels like they see themselves as victims
that need to be compensated.
Why are you guilt tripping someone, who is clearly not interested, to make content for you?
No one is robbing them of anything. If there's so little f/f content out there maybe it's because there is not so many people with a genuine interest in it to begin with.
All that m/m content, who seems so prevalent, it's mostly spontaneous and organic. People are doing it because they like it. You can't force things.
Also this "drst" user crying "self-misogyny" while insulting another woman for her innocuous interest is truly a work of mental gymnastics.
>>1400468>it's rare the writers of it will be honest that they just want to fantasize about two guys fucking, they have to frame it behind all of these other stupid reasons
Women are extremely socially conscious and upset over the idea dehumanizing anyone in any way. It's the whole reason why "fetishization" arguments caught on like wildfire in fandom spaces, even if actual gay men couldn't care less about teenage girls flicking their beans to yaoi. It would probably be for the best if fujos would just take a page from the moids and go "Yeah, so?" when confronted for their smut. But I doubt that's going to happen, as women just can't help but see other people as actual human beings instead of objects that exist for our entertainment (a courtesy which scrotes will never return) and so they will remain reactive to accusations of hurting men or gay people or anyone. Because of this, women feel compelled to come up with virtuous, just reasoning for their fantasies. Screaming "why don't you just admit it's a coom thing?" will only make them try to find even more justifications for their shipping preferences, hence why everyone in fandom identifies as "queer" and M/M shipping is constantly emphasized to be about "queer representation" and lack of female characters triggers
essays worth excuses and mental gymnastics.
>>1401480>It would probably be for the best if fujos would just take a page from the moids and go "Yeah, so?" when confronted for their smut.
I'm genuinely annoyed by this argument because the overwhelming majority of fujos either ignore them altogether, clown on them and/or write community posts about how unacceptable it is to harass people, then get accused of ~being cringe autistics taking it too seriously~ for it so damned if you do and damned if you don't. It's rare for people to actually double down these days because they know it's much noise about nothing and it's thanks to all the people raising awareness about it. People feel much safer not giving a public statement about how sowwy they are for drawing boys kissing. Most of the people who buckle are very young themselves or are literally being spammed with gore to incite a reaction out of them, I know this sounds like a meme but it's an actual thing.
> Screaming "why don't you just admit it's a coom thing?" will only make them try to find even more justifications for their shipping preferences, hence why everyone in fandom identifies as "queer" and M/M shipping is constantly emphasized to be about "queer representation" and lack of female characters triggers essays worth excuses and mental gymnastics.
For some people it is
a representation thing. I don't read a 10-volume romantic BL manga barely with any sex scenes for cooming, even in most BL the sex is more likely to be implied than explicit unless you're specifically looking for smutty content. I like reading about same sex relationships and it just happens that most of the female-written works are male ships because it automatically bars scrotes from sexualizing it. I get that there's an annoyance at people writing out these nonsensical "reading yaoi made me realize I was a transmasculine genderless nonbinary gay man" essays but for a lot of people it was also a wake-up call to how much they enjoyed the stories because
they were unapologetic but written by other women and how they had been looking for something like this for all their lives.
ayrt, I fully agree the reasons behind the justifications are part of the typical phenomena of women killing ourselves with our kindness, I wasn't intending any sort of "why don't you admit it's a coom thing?" as an attack, same as you I want women to be confident and unapologetic in their preferences>>1401521
I can understand seeking out BL for representation purposes as a reader of the genre like how you're describing your own situation, but it's odd and ridiculous imo when I see women who are WRITING it say that their reason behind doing so is representation. I've seen the argument that BL is something scrotes aren't going to sexualize before, but in the context of writing fan works, what scrotes are trolling around ao3 anyway? The posts I've seen on this site before from anons saying they're lesbians who consume/produce fujo content because scrotes would sexualize femslash feel very overly paranoid to me. I get that most yuri content actively available out there has been tainted by scrote writing but if you as an individual are creating fanfic for fun, what scrote is lurking around the corner to get his grubby mits on some butch lesbian genderswap fic of a popular fujo ship or whatever
>>1401079>b.) BL particularly wasn't as widely known in the west as it is now, most things that were seen as "fujo content" were actually just shoujo
A lot of those studies are specifically about "slash" or have "slash" as an option, so everyone who answered then must have known that it stood for male/male. It's pretty clear that's what it means, and also there's not a single mention of "fujoshi" or "yaoi" so there's no way the respondents could've mistaken het media for m/m.>Curiously in the only recent questionnaire you posted (the 2019 one) lesbians in the shipping fandom are almost as common (~14%) as straight women (~20%)
And there's also about 29% "asexuals", 21% "non-binary/genderqueer", and 9% "transgender" (same with "male"). Also, it's not ~14% lesbians, it's actually "gay/lesbian/homosexual", so the actual percentage of lesbians is lower, though by how much, we can't tell. That's why I said that it's impossible to determine whether those sexuality and gender answers are accurate or just people claiming to be something they're not, or exaggerating, to avoid being a "boring cishet" and become a special "(gender)queer" instead (a phenomenon that's relatively common in recent years, which would probably be reflected in a recent survey such as this one).>while bisexuals are the overwhelming majority at 42%
Remember that what we're discussing whether lesbians
(AKA women who are exclusively attracted to women) really are the majority in slash/yaoi fandom. Everything seems to indicate that's not the case at all, and most fujos, whether straight or bisexual, are attracted to men.
But, that doesn't mean that m/m doesn't attract a relatively high amount of lesbians because of the same reasons you've described. I do believe that lesbians are overrepresented in slash/yaoi fandom compared to the general population. The reasons for women getting into m/m are absolutely not the same in every case and most slashers/fujos have more than one reason, but it's evident that, in the majority of cases, it's driven mainly by an attraction to men, with the obvious exception of lesbians.
Related to this, I've seen a lot of people on here deny vehemently that yaoi characters cannot be seen as female, leading to arguments about lesbians being unable to like yaoi because of it, or non-lesbian fujos getting defensive at the implication that they self-insert in yaoi (something for which others shame them), which some fujos do but they don't want to admit and/or are rejected by other fujos. But they're just drawings, and they don't resemble real men most of the time. I imagine lesbian fujos are able to see past the characters' biological sex because of this. Of course, other people (both fujos and non-fujos) will always see them as men and their sex is a big part of the appeal without which some fujos would be completely turned off. It's clearly not the same for everyone, there's no single way or reason to like m/m.
>>1401650>The posts I've seen on this site before from anons saying they're lesbians who consume/produce fujo content because scrotes would sexualize femslash feel very overly paranoid to me.
Come on anon, men even colonized cute boys popular with women by cooming all over them with their femboy degeneracy. You're underestimating their pettiness and compulsive need to ruin everything women like. Either way, it shouldn't bother people that much to begin with. If women across all sexualities find solidarity in M/M shipping and have a community with a history spanning literally decades, who's to say they should do otherwise? If I crossed timelines to an alternative dimension where BL was popular with men only and women were all into femslash then things would be different and I would immediately abandon all my fujoshit business and go to said femslash. It's not so much about the subject matter but the female-driven creativity that it's born from.
Thinking about this actually reminded me of the Genshin fandom, men (and homophobic pickmes) were so butthurt about a heavily implied lesbian couple popular with female players they started writing corrective rape fics in the ship tag. So even if it was a F/F ship instead of M/M, if women like it and men don't, they'll find ways to harass women over it. >>1401725
The original question was "do lesbian fujos exist", not "are all fujos lesbian". Slash and original BL also remain two different audiences though there's naturally plenty of overlap between them. This anon >>1401400
here is a good example of how straight fujos are much more likely to be just consumers of M/M media than to actively create and be more involved in developing the genre further. >That's why I said that it's impossible to tell whether those sexuality and gender answers are accurate or just people claiming to be something they're not to avoid being a "boring cishet" and become a special "(gender)queer" instead (a phenomenon that's relatively common in recent years).
If you want to look it from that perspective, it swings both ways. Bisexuals and asexuals can also be repressed lesbians (a very common pipeline), overall including "asexual" in the questionnaire warps the statistic immensely since it's not a sexual orientation. And even if we're being stingy with the 14% lesbian statistic that's still a whole lot more than the general population in which 0.5% of all women are estimated to be homosexual. Therefore it's fair to say that M/M shipping attracts a disproportionate amount of exclusively female-attracted females. 14% or even 10% is still 1 in 10 women, a considerable amount seeing how rare lesbianism is in the end.
>>1401731>The original question was "do lesbian fujos exist", not "are all fujos lesbian"
I apologize if I misinterpreted >>1400817
but I thought she was talking about this argument some fujos here use where they claim most of them are lesbians, and most women being attracted to men has nothing to do with why m/m is popular (often used to counter some claim). I didn't think she was skeptical of the existence of lesbian fujos, I think it should be obvious to anyone familiar with fandom that they exist. But they're a minority, and attraction to males is a main factor in every other case, is what I'm trying to say.
I do think it's kinda weird that not even fic writers who are attracted to women write that much f/f (if there really are that many female-attracted female shippers/authors why is f/f less common than them?), because like drst said in this post >>1397497
m/m writers will ship even background characters with no canon backstory or dialogue and give them a whole personality, but the same rarely happens with unimportant (or even semi-important) female characters. Techically, there's nothing stopping female-attracted fic writers from improving canon female characters and turning them into good, appealing representations of women as much as it's done for male characters, or creating settings where women are as powerful as men or more.
If half, or more than half of female shippers are attracted to women, and bi/lesbian shippers are more active content creators than straight ones, why does f/f only have like 1/10th of the popularity of m/m? The more I think about it, the more confused I am. Maybe it really is true that female characters in media are often so badly written and boring that not even bi and lesbian shippers want to fix them. Or maybe they're just so doompilled that they just want to forget about how women are treated in society.
>even if we're being stingy with the 14% lesbian statistic that's still a whole lot more than the general population
Yeah, I mentioned that in my post.
>>1401754>If half, or more than half of female shippers are attracted to women, and bi/lesbian shippers are more active content creators than straight ones, why does f/f only have like 1/10th of the popularity of m/m? The more I think about it, the more confused I am. Maybe it really is true that female characters in media are often so badly written and boring that not even bi and lesbian shippers want to fix them. Or maybe they're just so doompilled that they just want to forget about how women are treated in society.
A little from column A, a little from column B, some from C, an ounce from D. Everyone has their personal reasons which is exactly why M/M has such a wide appeal to women regardless of their sexual orientation. Some just like looking at sexy husbandos and imagining themselves between them, some don't like female characters due to not being able to relate to how they're written at all, some are just blackpilled beyond repair about any female portrayal, some read the male characters as stand-ins for GNC lesbian women but all of them still consume material from the same female-dominated source.
I know people dunk on the Bechdel test a lot but it comes from a real place - female characters are generally only defined by their relationship with a male. I love a good female character just as much as the next woman but the fact is that they're never given relationships interesting enough to be invested in, and when their personalities check out their designs tend to be either overly sexualized or uninspired. Sure people can create their own female OCs and make them as they want them to be, I do exactly that, but when there's a massive, already established no boys allowed club in front of me it's just more fun to join the party connecting with others via the characters we already share a mutual interest in. I've noticed that a lot of women who are offended about other women only being invested in male characters and not their best girls project a whole lot into the female characters they like and almost make up a personality for them inside their heads. For example some people consider Sakura from Naruto as a misunderstood heroine, others see her as the embodiment of the Token Girl the author had no idea what to do with besides "she likes one of the main guys". I've witnessed many women who would deadass die on the hill of defending some obvious coombait waifu with the personality of a wet dishrag as "she's just like me so I love her!".
>>1401825>Noone said anything about women being the "transformative part" of the fandom
Except the reddit post here >>1397452
explicitly says men and women tend to
belong to one group more than the other and that this isn't by any means a rule (it also doesn't say women are inferior for liking ships), but this anon >>1397813
started to screech about how pointing out some differences is the same thing as saying "guys have less drama" or that moids never care about shipping (which is not what was said at all). No one said it's an inherently bad thing and that reaction was unwarranted.
The ubiquity of fandom makes me kind of sad tbh. Pretty much every culture has stock characters that they use to tell stories (e.g. King Arthur, the Greek pantheon), but it seems like so much creativity is getting funneled into these big corporate-owned intellectual properties to the point where those companies more or less have control over a good portion of creative output (and many lives; a lot of people involved in fandom really need to touch some fucking grass). It seems like it's only going to get worse as children are raised surrounded by licensed toys and screens too. >>1385289>Their post about them unironically getting fucking furious at people who don't go full schizo mode when larping as fictional characters
Even funnier is that she clearly got into the otherkin shit well past the point fandom had already completely destroyed the otherkin subculture, which is unironically a shame because for as bizarre as it was, it was at least an extremely interesting phenomenon that hadn't sprung up from consumerist bullshit. She's complaining about newcomers to a community that people like her had ruined beyond repair.
>>1401731>This anon >>1401400 here is a good example of how straight fujos are much more likely to be just consumers of M/M media than to actively create and be more involved in developing the genre further.
No, she isn't. Have you heard of Naomi Novik? Wrote a boat load of m/m, huge bnf, started AO3, but her pro writing is all m/f? See also, N.K. Jemsin. Writes m/m fanfic and her pro writing is all straight couples. Those are typical examples of straight fujos. M/M in the sheets, M/F in streets.>>1401754>If half, or more than half of female shippers are attracted to women,
>and bi/lesbian shippers are more active content creators than straight ones
Doubt. Have you seen wattpad or 50 shades of grey fandom?
>Maybe it really is true that female characters in media are often so badly written and boring that not even bi and lesbian shippers want to fix them. Or maybe they're just so doompilled that they just want to forget about how women are treated in society.
When the female characters are there, f/f writers show up with bells on. See Supergirl, The 100, and Once Upon A Time fandom for the latest big f/f fandoms. f/f fandoms are rarely as big as m/m because of more people in m/m but if there are shippy women main characters, we will be there. >>1401844>project a whole lot into the female characters they like and almost make up a personality for them inside their heads.
Are you on crack or just in denial? m/m writers do this all the damn time.
I miss the days when f/f fans were over here doing our own thing and barely if ever interacted with m/m fans, who were over there doing their own thing, firstly because m/m fans a bunch of degenerates, see ABO and crap like serial killer AUs, and second, because this stupid why don't m/m fans write f/f arguments never fucking ends (This is on both m/m and f/f fans). It's always the same arguments every damn time when the truth is quite simple.
Why don't m/m fans write f/f? Misogyny. Internalized misogyny (f/f fans also have internalized misogyny but it doesn't interfere with them connecting with female characters; it comes out in other ways), a touch of lesbophobia, and the misogyny of creators resulting in fewer and less well written female characters, making it harder for some people to write fanfic about them so they write for easier characters. That's it.
>fujo m/ms are homophobic
can I get a qrd? I heard this recently but I don't get it. Because they disregard female characters? I also heard asian light novels are predominantly female-written m/m.>>1402177>f/f fiction has lesbian bed death too
I don't like men doing homo stuff though.
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>>1402063>why are straight women more into m/m than m/f
Because it's a double dose of the sex they like, and because same-sex couples don't have the same inherent power imbalance that opposite sex ones do. It's literally everything they enjoy with nothing they don't.
Also, if people only ever want to draw or write one thing, so be it. It's their goddamn art, and people being forced to draw/write shit they don't want to for fear of being called bigots is exactly how you end up with crappy, tokenized representation. >>1401928>m/m fans a bunch of degenerates, see ABO and crap like serial killer AUs
This is like saying straight people are degenerates because a handful of them are into DDLG or BDSM. It's retarded to make generalizations about an entire group based on its most extreme members.>>1402757
A handful of NLOGs online (mostly TIFs and a handful of faghags) call fujoshis homophobic because they're ~fetishizing~ gay men, because god forbid the poor widdle men get sexualized for once in their absurdly privileged existence. TIFs in particular feel like enjoying gayshit is a "right" they "earned" by sawing their tits off.
Actual gay men don't give a crap about this shit, because they have actual lives outside the internet and more important shit to worry about. Every single time I've seen someone bitching about le evil fujoshis fetishizing gay men, it's turned out to be a TIF or a genderspecial. Kind of infuriates me that these women are more interested at berating a niche group of female geeks than they are at combating the much larger issue of how lesbians are treated in media created by and for straight men.
Then you get entitled retards like >>1401928
who get asshurt and start accusing everyone else of bigotry when there isn't enough content for whatever thing they like. Not sure how that's the fault of fujoshis when most online content creators aren't fujos, but go off I guess.
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Lmao someone needs to tell these speds that Tumblr's moderation team is basically non-existent. Report all you like, nothing ever happens. Sometimes images get censored but bots, but that's the most I've ever seen happen after using the site for over a decade.
If their mythical moderation team actually did their goddamn jobs, the site probably wouldn't have been booted from the App Store in the first place.
That's not even remotely the point of what I was saying? I was just using an example; substitute straight people with literally any other group that has a small, crazy subset if it's that hard to understand. My actual point was about how a handful of weirdos into ABO aren't representative of fujoshis as a whole.
Seriously. Whenever ABO gets brought up in the fujo thread in /m/, it's in a negative light. If ABOfags were representative of their community, they wouldn't get clowned on so hard by it.
sure, but >>1402688
sounded like a scrotepost.
I think heterosexual women into m/m romances over het are weird if not sexually neurotic, sort of in the way men way too into lesbian porn become depraved perverts but not to the extent moids go to. But I guess we have to let people like what they like.
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i dont know where to post this cap. But i just saw it in some manga/manhwa site.
This is what happens when you consume too much content of something, its important to be diverse.
Kpop and manga/anime got this woman hating her skin color.
This is probably just a bigot LARPing as a brown person. Happens often, unfortunately.
Also, not that it matters, but the characters in Japanese media are typically… Japanese. I'm not sure how people keep missing that?
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they even wrote a dramatic apology and in their other replies they were suicidebaiting.
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these sites sometimes have secret milk in them.
Lots of infighting between weebs when a site decides to take porn down and of course the one who is NOT pornsick always gets downvoted.
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these statements neglect the fact that the "bottom" characters in m/m ships are frequently treated as and biologically function as female in all but pronouns, the popularity of A/B/O, various forms of mpreg and the infamous "yaoi hole" where the anus is nothing like an actual anus and the alleged sex between two male characters is more like vaginal penetration
m/m ships aren't 2 male characters, its 1 male character and a pseudo-rule63 of another male character pairing up, I feel similar results could achieved just with regular rule63 and you wouldn't have to lie to yourself
pakichan, youve literally posted the same thing before with the same image.
How tf are you always active.
nta but she made a valid
I remember the Eltingville threads! They were so entertaining. That was a solid month or two of yumejo goodness.>>1386882
Fujos definitely attract fujos. When one fujo oriented fandom dies out they tend to gravitate en masse to the next big thing. The original media is there to help proliferate fan work, they care more for the fandom and fan content than the original thing.
Female sexuality can be weird depending on how repressed/young you are, I'm not sure why this even needs to be discussed. What exactly is the argument? Women applying female traits to men they draw could just be because they're actually not men so they can't comprehend them having sex in a male way, or they've been subconsciously influenced their whole lives by hetero sex/relationship dynamics and they apply it to their gay male fiction. So what? It's masturbation material and it doesn't have to be 100% accurate to the male experience. God knows men will never bother portraying women correctly, even outside of porn that's quite literally meant to be entirely self indulgent.
I'm personally so confused by what this post is trying to achieve, is it to be some kind of a getcha that frames women in a negative way? Then again I also never participated in fandoms apart from looking at Kingdom Hearts yaoi at age 14 kek. I'll truly never understand these exhaustive conversations.
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its convinced tens of thousands of girls to see humans as mere sentient blank slate meat blobs that are sometimes born with either a "penis", "ovaries" or some in-between deformity and then we "assign" (or "impose"), you can't persuade me that the various forms mpreg aren't some imposition of undeniable female biology on a character, can you really say that pregnancy, the most female trait possible is just arbitrary in m/m fics, the character that can pregnant IS NOT MALE in any conceivable way
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Omg you really can't give an answer can you, even in 90's Japan you could find doujins featuring mpreg and yet your still finding a way to weasel out of it, you can't acknowledge that an uke is just a rule63 character
Did you miss what I said about how ABO and mpreg are niche, and how most fujoshis aren't into them? Asking why people get off on MPREG is like asking why people get off on inflation or feet. It's just a fetish, and there isn't a rational basis for it.
Another anon hit the nail on the head when she said that ukes and unrealistic sex in yaoi are mostly the product of ignorance. A lot of these geeky teenage girls barely understand how straight sex works, let alone gay sex, so their attempts to write gay sex are going to be misinformed. It's worth mentioning as well that stereotypical semes and ukes are falling out of favor, especially in the west.
I'd agree that the people who are into ABO, Mpreg, and super stereotypical ukes specifically likely have internalized misogyny. However, I completely disagree with the argument that literally all fujoshis are misogynists. Fuck off with that. M/M shipping is often (but not always) thirst-based and occasionally, in certain circumstances, indicative of internalized misogyny. Beyond that, I don't know what the fuck else you want us to say.
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you are right that its a fetish, but certain fetishes can reveal surefire traits about an individual, like how troons feminization fetishes let slips an AGP's intense misogyny, same way a mpreg fetish just reveals a hatred towards the female form, and you can't claim that its a rare niche, A/B/O is one of the most popular and most searched tags on AO3, it makes up around a quarter of all m/m ships and yet your acting like its a super rare
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Where the fuck did you get this information? It's a total lie. ABO isn't even in the top hundred
most popular tags on AO3:https://archiveofourown.org/works/20310382/chapters/99808410#workskin
I can't believe how much time you invest into shit you hate, paki-chan. It's fucking pathetic.
For works created in 2022 only
, yes. But if you look at all works created from the beginning of the site to 2022, it doesn't make the list at all.
Not that it matters. Barely scraping the bottom of the list for just one year still means it's far from ~the most popular tag~ like >>1403445
i think it also has to do with the fact that we rarelly see m/f dynamics where the man is actually submissive and vulnerable to the woman
also it's interesting that i see some genderbent m/m ships where both or only one character is turned female, and their dynamic is actually better constructed than a lot of m/f and f/f ships lol
People have the weirdest assumptions about what fujos like, despite the fact that the most dominant fanfic site has a comprehensive tagging system that allows you to clearly see the data on it's content. They'll insist fujos are pedos who love rape or whatever but you can just go see for yourself how small those categories are (and if you actually read them you'll find they're usually not a fetish in the story but used for a dramatic storyline), while stories without any sex at all (pg/teen rated) are usually the biggest.
Anyway I can't blame anons for thinking ABO is gross but I also think the assumptions about internalized misogyny etc are too harsh. It's pretty evident that what girls enjoy about it is animalistic/instinctive forms of attraction and exaggerated 'gender roles' that DON'T involve women being hurt or degraded or insulted. I think it's understandable that women, whose main point of reference for sex and love is their own lives, would retain some appreciation of feminine traits and roles. But they prefer shipping men and therefore came up with a hybrid that lets them enjoy both at the same time. And I'll never blame anyone who wants to gloss over the reality of gay sex, it's gross and uncomfortable and nobody is trying to appease gay men rather than other women.
Because paki-chan and the resident tranny feel the need to start fujoshi discourse in literally. Every. Thread. Regardless of how relevant it is.
Also, things can be cringe without being literal bigotry that Must Be Eliminated. And they're really not a "large majority" of any fandom. They just feel
that way in female-dominated geek spaces specifically because fujoshis churn out a lot of fanfic and fanart. Leave Tumblr and you'll find that fujoshis are rarely a "large majority" in fandoms.
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>>1402910>Anyway I can't blame anons for thinking ABO is gross but I also think the assumptions about internalized misogyny etc are too harsh.
Would these anons actually find it preferable if the people writing fics with dark and taboo kinks had those kinks happen to female characters instead? Look at the logic here:
>Um, why are the rape and abuse victims in these stories always male, do the authors have something against women? Why don't they want to objectify more women in their wank material? Is this what misogyny looks like?
means woman that disagrees with me in their vocabulary lol.
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That's a really good point anon, I didn't even think of that. If more ABO weirdos wrote about women (which, unfortunately, there are a handful who do, like Addison Cain) then you'd just have a ton of fiction about women being violently subjugated and sexually abused. Say what you want, that shit is a hell of a lot more tolerable when it's being written about men, who basically deserve it after treating women that way IRL for thousands of years.
The whole thing really speaks to how the anti-fujos just want women to all write nothing but wholesome cottagecore vanilla sex in the missionary position, or face accusations of misogyny and homophobia. Like, yeah it's cringey when women write about two random anime guys boning, but it's ultimately a harmless expression of their sexuality. Incredible that men can get away with literally choking their girlfriends to death during sex and jerking off to videos of women being forced to eat vomit, but everyone flips the hell out when a girl draws gay sex.
It's an easy way to demonize the people who disagree with them. They use "pedo" and "lolicon" the same way, despite the fact that most proshippers are other women who often ship a some of the same pairings as the antis attacking them.
Clown on clown violence. That basically sums it all up.
>>1401009>Anti fujo types will obviously never admit it, but it all comes back to them being NLOGs.
Starting off, it's not a coincidence that a shit ton of them are fakebois who are desperate to get men (especially gay men) to like them and enjoy putting other women down and policing them due to this. They have an issue in which they constantly
Anon…as a millenial who has spend plenty of time on fandoms and internet but has never cared about yaoi, fujos and fakebois are literally the same thing just different generation lol
both are just awkward het women who live and breathe m/m content
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How responsible are media creators for the fandom their work cultivates? I've heard through the grapevine that Rick and Morty wasn't a show that encouraged the "I'm so much smarter than everyone else and Rick's so much like me" line of though popular within its fandom a few years ago on Reddit, but it's such a widely believed interpretation of it that I believe there must've been some undercurrent of it within the show. Looking at it from a more feminine perspective…
Did it attract so many morally bankrupt men that they ignored the larger family aspect of the show, or was that aspect always supposed to be lesser in favor of Rick and Morty themselves? Did the showwriters assume their audience would care about the family drama if they cared about Rick, or were they aware of how he'd be perceived by edgelords? They created their fandom without intending to.
And whatever the hell happened with Breaking Bad? It was written with circa 2010s(?) tolerance for gay/neurodivergent/otherkin whatever in larger media at the time, but it's recently gained a large(?) audience of terminally online gendies. One of these fans on Twitter/Tumblr posted about how she was genuinely upset Jesse said retard or something in an episode. Are the always morally-on-their-high-horse people so hypocritical that they cry TERF when they see anything right to their center, but media that has their main characters say retard get a pass, don't get cancelled, because they think Jesse's hot or someone to aspire to look like? From this perspective they're complete frauds. Do they like the writing of the show to the point where they throw out their entire moral compass (if they even have one if its broken by Aaron Paul) or did no one actually watch the show before making it Twitter media of the month? If they actually did, then what does that say about the audience the writers of that show cultivated? They created their fandom without intending to as well.
I haven't seen either show
I think they just are horny/kin the characters tbh lol I've seen tifs be into it's always sunny and there's pretty blatant "transphobia" in that show. That or they think they're being super edgy.
I originally watched bb back in the day and there were definitely female fans but back then it had a reputation as being a fedora tippers show in certain online sj spaces. I remember them harassing the actress who place Skyler because they hated her character
Oldfag fujoshis mostly just keep to themselves and draw/like gayshit for fun. The people starting fights and accusing others of bigotry are FTMs 99% of the time.
I'd argue that the people not sawing their own breasts off are categorically less misogynistic than the ones who are. How is it even a competition at that point.>>1404788>mlm content
You're in your thirties
and you're still seething over this shit? You're almost as bad as they are, good lord. Why on earth do you care about what people that
People like what they like, and most people have shit taste. You're not going to change their minds by screaming at them about how bigoted they are.
The recent Tumblr popularity of Breaking Bad and Jesse and particular really highlights to me that politics are an afterthought when people are getting into new stuff, even people who purport to be as "politically involved" as TRAs on Tumblr. They watched the show, liked it, thirsted for Jesse, then retroactively applied their retarded headcanons to it as a way of making their love of it woke. I haven't watched it either, but my understanding is that Jesse is just an edgelord who constantly says casually misogynistic, homophobic, etc things because he's a white trash. So of course instead of watching something else, or accepting that their politics and casual interests don't have to perfectly align, Aidens turn around and justify their obsession with Jesse by saying that he's ackshually a twans man and that his bigoted rhetoric is just internalized or some shit.
Then a lot of fans take it a step further by trashing the showrunners as a means of virtue-signalling. Denigrating the people who make the "problametic" thing you love is a great get-out-of-jail-free card for SJWs to enjoy the thing without looking like hypocrites. Except they're throwing the people who work hard to create the thing under the bus, and on the whole contributing to a culture of entitlement and content creators being mistreated. All of the sake of looking woke.
I was being hyperbolic. Are you ESL or something?
You're not going to change peoples minds by guilt-tripping them. No one ever responded to being condescended to online by going, "hmm, I'm actually going to do the thing that person told me to do! How insightful.">>1404829
Again, it's hyperbole, paki-chan.>>1404820
Fair enough. But both sides of the debate are using gay people as shields. See Aidens claiming to be gay men and caping on their behalf when gay men don't actually care for an example of that.
Guess what? The disappearance of lesbian bars and the word woman being erased from medical documents is not the work of 30-year-old womanchildren NEETs. It's 100% caused by TIFs and genderspecials, so maybe you should focus more of your energy on them, since they're causing actual issues in real life and not just being dipshits online.
I'd take a thousand marms online calling fandom "historically kweer" if it meant we could have lesbian bars back and women weren't called "menstruators" ever again.
That wasn't even my point?? It wasn't about guilting anyone into anything I just don't understand why being straight has anything to do with the media you consume wholly. I just found it a strange point to make
You're making the worst faith reading of what I said when I was literally asking a question because I didn't understand. Not everyone in here is trying to start an argument or fight you jfc
I'm not paki-chan… I wasn't even condemning fujos
Yes, that's my point both are the same shit, just that they are from different generations so they act different because fandom and internet has changed.
30s womanchildren are also huge TRAs and gendies who have cut their tits if you haven't noticed lol not that it affects them because they are st8 with a nigel so the MtF aren't interested
Sorry for coming across so aggro about it, anons. Admittedly I misunderstood the thread of the argument going on, since it's been happening for so long.
The question of why people don't create/enjoy content with female characters was asked in bad faith earlier in the thread, and that's why I reacted the way I did. To answer your actual question instead of being a retard like I was: most straight women aren't fujoshis because it's kind of an obscure, geeky thing to be, but fujoshis are straight or bisexual 98% of the time for reasons that have been pretty well established at this point. I don't know if "normal" is the right way to describe it especially given its relative obscurity, though, but there doesn't really exist a word to describe things that are neither normal nor offensive. Harmless cringe maybe? Idk.>>1404848
Oh yeah, there's definitely overlap between fujoshis and SJW gendie types. There's no denying that. I think that's why some people have coined the phrase "old-school fujoshi" to describe fujosis who aren't
gendies, which are unfortunately increasingly rare in the west (though they're obviously still around.)
Maybe that's where the misunderstanding is coming from, because when you say "fujoshi" that includes literally everyone who enjoys slash, including a lot of otherwise normie Japanese women and such, as well as the type of anti-troon fujoshis who post in the thread on /m/. I think a term needs to be coined specifically to describe fujoshis who are
western SJW types, just to give the discussion some clarity so we stop lumping people who are simply cringe in with people who cut off their own body parts.
I guess it just confused me cause I have some fujo pals but they're also pretty well rounded in what they like and consume so it's not all fujo stuff so when I do run across someone like that it's like an alien to me. I just don't get it
Like I feel like it's pretty easy to claim someone is annoying if they're overly rabid and those are the only types that have ever really gotten on my nerves. This can literally apply to any type of fandom person though. Like if you're letting it leak into every conversation
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Exactly, anon. No clue why people get so defensive when you call something cringe or criticize something here. As if this thread wasn't meant for the analysis of fandom culture, good or bad in any direction. Anons should stop taking everything said here as a personal attack.
As this anon said,>>1404697
I've seen the exact same thing too. Neither side is unbothered because it happens in the regular fujo thread too. Don't know why all the fujos in this thread are acting so morally superior.>>1404808
It has been so strange to see. I used to get this artist on my timeline so much that I had to block them. I think they enjoy the ironic dissonance of a trans person being in an otherwise "offensive" show that gets them going.
>>1377446>God this. I’ve noticed that individuals with generally poor media literacy end up being the worst all around, even socially.
Idk about snapewives but in case of kylo those women read additional lucasfilm books, novels, comics etc yet whole fandom decides to gaslight them into >women and their fantasies haha they are so dumb
That fandom being predominantly male and filled with "i'm not like other girls" pickmes doesn't help.
Any day I'd rather stand with villain loving women than misogynists that are stuck in>using twilight as an insult towards women >>1377481
Organized religions very much had corporate level influence over people, their lives and money. I get what you mean, fandom spaces like religions breed >us with them rhetoric>>1377885
I understand some people may need soft, kids media as an escapism but why do they try to turn into something adult? like if you want something like that, there is adult media out there, go enjoy and interact with it. I legit don't get it. >>1383481>Women have always inspired and imitated art, but currently it's as though women are competing with art because of hentai (or yaoi in some instances)
It breaks my heart when I see nerdy ex-youtuber girls that nice personality, had their interests and were very much cute, ruin their bodies with implants and injections to turn themselves into hentail like character so they can promote their onlyfans and instagram.
>>1404800>I don't think you need to be a certain sexuality to connect and like characters
me neither and I think this is a point that falls more under general fandom behavior than the tiring, endless fujo debate that should have been moved to the fujo cringe thread to begin with. I was the anon annoyed at generalization (because it’s contra productive to any discussion). I dont ship on the basis of two characters having a specific sex, If I ever do but maybe thats rare idk. I think different people have different reasons for shipping and this tells a lot about them through how they approach fiction. I want to to write more about different kinds of media consumers.
Some people go overboard with exploring the narrative and looking for every possible scenario, some seem to view characters through a shipping lense and are only interested in their interactions with other shippable characters on the basis of how much porn you could get from that. Maybe its just different levels of coomer brainrot.
Coming back at my point that there is a general lack of female characters that actually appeal to women (i.e. being more than shitty waifubait, token female or mc support girl); For example you sometimes see artists imagine and draw characters from sausage fest series as women and even shipping them like this. It may be for fun but it may be that some of them are bi or aren’t attracted to men, but attracted to the characters and their personality so much that they want to further enjoy them regardless. I just thought its interesting.>>1404808
I was wondering about the current increase in breaking bad fanart too, what the hell happened? I never watched it either
>>1404914>That fandom being predominantly male and filled with "i'm not like other girls" pickmes doesn't help. >Any day I'd rather stand with villain loving women than misogynists that are stuck in
This lmao. Idk what that anon is on, losing a friend over her being a Kylo Ren or a Snape fangirl seems next level retarded. Ironically my experience has been the girls who attack and criticize these fangirls are the worst breed of pickme and nlogs, they just hate women so much and attack these dumb fan crushes usually build on fanfics to show how much better and mature they are than some random teen girls online who are just having fun (i mean just look at >>1377881
. Someone is a coward for not having OCs?? Literally what the fuck??? Maybe they have jobs and don't take silly internet characters as seriously as you do lmao. The stink of terminally onliness this post reeks of).
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>>1405274>Someone is a coward for not having OCs?? Literally what the fuck???
That's not what they were saying, or meant to say. They meant people who feign intelligence or understanding of a fictional character by investing themselves deep into their lore, yet still have no real idea why the character acts the way they do.>>1377446
I recently saw something like this with HOTDs Daemon. I could be biased because I hate him, but people were incredibly shocked when a woman abuser turned out to be abusive
to his wife(which he already groomed and who was his niece). They called it OOC, as if he didn't kill his previous wife, not attend the birth of his kid with his ex-wife(who then died), and slept on and off with a mistress he had no care for. He was always a volatile man, yet his fangirls are the type obsessed with bad boys and thought he would be an obsession with his niece. It would at least be better if these people didn't try to come up with lame excuses. He's a well-written character, one that's supposed to be evil, and it's not a bad thing to admit it.
Mememe is fake deep as fuck, it’s literally just coomershit but also saying coomershit bad.
Moids always do shit like this since even when they want to criticize stuff like porn, they’re still not actually against it.
Western fandom cultures are too obsessed with trying to force identities on themselves with labels. Eastern societies know how retarded that is.
But with that being said, just because we can't read their languages, doesn't mean this discourse doesn't exist (at least in Japan). Japanese women are still critical of how young Japanese women are portrayed in fiction because pedophilic-esque content is so normal there and damaging to them in their own ways.>>1405918
It's normal for people to find incest, even as a kink or in fiction weird, even if it is still a common trope.
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Why do gay/lesbian couples in western shows make me cringe so hard? There is something so… performative about them i can’t put my finger on it. I much enjoy gay/lesbian media from japan/korea, and they are supposedly more homophobic, but they write better stuff. Heck, I downloaded this one shitty russian dating game and it has such cute lesbian romance options and it doesn’t feel forced at all (picrel is a cg from the game). Why is that? Why do people from more oppressive countries create better lesbian/gay stories?
Because it's typically either straight men writing a male-gazey version of lesbians (looking at you, Blue is the Warmest Color), or straight women writing an uwu sexless cottagecore version. In both cases, the lesbian characters don't really feel like people.
Obviously it's possible for someone who isn't
a lesbian personally to write one well, it's just rare because many writers are too self-absorbed to try and truly understand the experience of a marginalized group to which they do not personally belong.
Maybe I'm just a weeb, but several of my favorite lesbian relationships in fiction are from josei mangas. As for your experiences with non-English lesbian romance, I think it's because when being gay is literally outlawed in a country, you don't have a bunch of virtue-signallers writing half-assed crap to look woke. You still have fetishists, unfortunately.
It's like fictionalized lesbians are always perfect. They have the perfect look, home, attitude, age and beliefs. No selfish, hurtful and detrimental thought goes through their mind. They act as if they are always being watched and judged. They're never ugly.
Of course, most romance isn't realistic, it's an exaggeration of what real people in those relationships like to see in fiction. Bella x Edward isn't realistic but some women love the pairing. I personally haven't looked too hard for fictional lesbians, the women I know in real life have much more interesting stories and personal ugliness than most fictional lesbians and honestly fictional women in general.
Pic posted is honestly the kind of lesbian depiction I dislike in media but all the power to you anon!
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Am I insane for trying to find smut that isn't your typical moid porn garbage repackaged as shipping fanfic? I only read m/f and finding something more normal and emphasizes pleasure for the female character is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. I hate that I can't find something that isn't male gazey even when it's supposed to be through the eyes of a woman. There are times when I think I'm getting something normal and then the porn influence sneaks in and suddenly the characters are salivating for cock and screaming from orgasms and jesus christ, haven't any of these authors had sex. I know the answer is probably no but still.
idk maybe my fandoms are shit but I also think this is the end result of so many people having access to porn while in their formative years.
Can't be a tomboy or masculine woman anymore, you must be trans now.
Can't like two men fucking and be a woman anymore, you must be trans to be allowed to like it.
I agree I hate it. I ignore it though, luckily my fandoms are mainly Asian so it's easy to avoid the genderfaggotry.
Manga don't care about being politically correct (I hate using that term but in this case it makes sense) so the gays can just be anything. Most of my favorite gays or gay teased characters are villains/antagonists. You won't get that in the west because it needs to be lbgt+ friendly and they are afraid of cancellation.
Remember that Karens and trads are already shunning series with gays, so if you would alienate the lgbt+ crowd as well you might as well axe your own series. Anime were always more open and less black and white. Morally gray MCs are way more common in manga than in comics.
Notice the same issue with women in media. In most cases the women are boring because they HAVE To be the voice of reason character or the nurturing character because of virtue signalling and coomer fantasies. There are of course many coomer manga too but even old series like Sailor Moon had diverse female antagonists, shady women, silent women and all kinds of women.
The west is trying too hard to sell a product and advertise it while mangaka just want to tell a story.
Add to that that a lot of western lesbians and gays are simply UGLY lol. Or literal children. Yeah I know Owlhouse has kids being gay thank you but honestly not what I am into, I don't want romances with children at all regardless if gay or het.
God you speak to me because the last fandom I was in had such anti-fujos and their most favorite fics that got like 300 comments were always forced marriage trash in which the female MC was a slave being bought off by the noble rich husbando or some shit.
It fucking disgusts me how popular that trash is among these circles. They have no right to complain about "fetishizing" or abuse because people ship dudes that are canon enemies when they fawn over shit like this.
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idk where else to put this, but a fandom specific rant
so tired of nu-fandom and trying to find anything good
every character gets trannified, gets turned into a potato-nosed hambeast, turned into a hirsute, whatever
just fucking draw or write the character like they are in canon
no one wants to see your weird projecting take on them
they act like they support it but there's no way it can be preferred to the original canon
people like canon for a reason
and "headcanon" means fucking nothing now
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I don't even look for fanfics anymore and I block people who post their ugly as fuck doodles (not even gonna call them artists), I miss the good old days when I would actually look for fics and find good or decent stuff instead of shit like Ace Attorney gay stuff where one of the guys regardless of pairings will suddenly be revealed to be an Americanized straight girl. The more time passes, the less I think about it though. I think I'm moving on from fandoms but man, I miss the good old days. I feel pure, visceral disgust when I see tranny porn art or racebending art online not even just because that shit is dumb and ugly but because I remember that the people making and posting that shit ruined a hobby of mine.>>1425940
I'm not that much younger than you but from my own observation it's not just zoomers who decided to change the definition of the word "headcanon", a decade ago I already saw people older than me sperging about their trans headcanon because "we technically never see the characters completely naked and for all we know they have mastectomy scars under their clothes so it doesn't contradict canons" or "technically the race and skin color of that character is never explicitly mentioned until chapter 100000000 so if I say that this Japanese character born and raised in Japan with a Japanese name is African American then I'm not contradiction canon, checkmate!!1!", then zoomers saw this type of argument and little by little they stopped bothering justifying where their headcanons come from and how they're not contradicting canon. I think I first saw that with Persona 4, which is extra funny because Naoto being a transboy doesn't just contradict canon it contradicts the whole point of her arc. Then I started seeing it with Hange in Attack on Titan with the mangaka shit talking his readers for not guessing that she's a woman because of the very rough art style, and with Armin because he has a cutesy round face and big eyes.
it feels like their drama isn't as focused on moralfagshit as the west's is though. like if they dislike something it's on the basis of just not liking it and not "uhmmmm it's INCEST PEDOPHILIA PROBLEMATIC
literally oppressing me :(!" etc.
Koreans in BL spaces get really retarded and expect you to ship everyone equally and give love and mention the other ships. "I noticed you didn't like enough art with X ship… You must be an X ship hater!"
They are unironically that much in your business, even though they are guilty of the same shit too. They claim to be "I love them all" but show their bias anyway.
I love seeing the sour grapes when their preferred ship gets nowhere kek
>>1426895>Because it seems to me that female fans, unfortunately, tend to judge female characters way more harhsly
That's because most of them are
bad and created for the moid gaze. The only characters fitting your description that I can come up with are the sexy, malepandering femme fatales like Bayonetta or Lady Dimitrescu yet they still do have a very large female fanbase. As for what it would take to create a popular one with a big fanbase, probably to get past all the iron gates kept by male executives who feel threatened by a morally grey female protagonist created exclusively for women. There's a reason why most characters like this are from indie works that never get any visibility.
I don't know shit about GOT but isn't it super popular with normies, including women, for having male and female characters being crazy, horrible murderers and warlords? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not gonna watch a series that starts well and has a shitty ending and I'm not starting a long series of novels that's on hiatus.>>1426898>an asshole female protagonist who does terrible shit>Bayonetta
The worst things she does is bragging all the time about being a bad bitch, insulting literal mass murdering monsters before killing them to save the world and telling a lost 6 years girl to stop crying, she really doesn't fit that description.
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fucking same, I just want a female Travis.
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same, i watch a bunch of cartoons and most of the lesbian ships either come out of nowhere, are super male-gazey or feel preachy. That's why western lesbians ships like catradora attract so many troons. The only lesbian ship i like from a western cartoon is the wiccas from CoTc, they dont feel male gazey.
yeah i know what you mean. maybe i'm just a bitter celibate lesbo but they come off as very performative. every time they're doing something nice for each other, it's in front of a camera, and the way they look into the camera, you can tell they're looking at themselves through the lens. and i do wonder if they're the same when the camera comes off. plus, how many date nights do you need? ok now i just sound very bitter lol
i think they're a bit performative but hopefully they both still love each other
this is a children's show?
looks like some dude's fetish
>>1426970>this is a children's show?
yeah>looks like some dude's fetish
how so? for me they look cool, they are goth but not in a gross fetishy moid way. Less scrotish than the pink princess and the goth tomboy girl at least.
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Interesting how whenever there's gay respresentation in kids shows, it's always two attractive young lesbians or in rare cases, someone's elderly gay dads who never kiss. Is it because they view gay women as inherently less sexual because they don't view women as having sexual agency, or is it because the male showrunners think lesbians are hot? Unfortunate either way.
I'm reasonably confident that a kiss between two named male characters would be more controversial, because the "gheyz are pedos!1!" nonsense was leveled at gay men more than it was at lesbians. There's a Fionna and Cake spinoff coming out soon, and I'd bet money that there'll be a lot less Bubbline in it than there was in the original show because the characters would be men instead of women.
Headcanon doesn't have to be mundane, it can also fill holes to draw connections that aren't explicitly hinted but not contradicting anything canon. Like you have character who hates water and you know that there was a flood in certain parts of their world less than 30 years ago you might headcanon that the fear of water isn't just a random quirk but a result from a personal experience with the flood.
But first of all it should never contradict canon and secondly people in the old days wouldn't claim it's confirmed and fight over it. Now fans are fighting because they pretend a character is trans that was never hinted as such, even if it's some medieval story or something.
I see "malewife" being thrown around all the time in those circles so you are probably right.
The worst is that I see so many people who are legit 30 adapting this zoomer speech. I can legit not tell the age of people anymore, everybody acts like a 14 year old even if they are 34 and the fact that they hang up online with literal children isn't just making this worse it's also slightly suspicious.
I noticed all those "Trans" zoomers heavily into fandoms, tend to be the most mentally and physically gross people in fandoms.
I was a part of a discord that was full of they/them types. One was a recluse, and judging by pictures, lived in what looked like a crack den but was legit scared to be coughed on as she believed it was gonna kill her lmao Despite thinking the air was gonna force her to commit seppuku she was one of the more tame ones.
Another she/they were arrested and blamed the discord.
One they/them (she) would make fun of fanfics for insisting straight male character is straight and he's 'totally Bi' and is a bottom. Yes, she was a fujo, just pointing out the obvious. She wasn't a zoomer so she was a little too old to be getting into internet brawls over her headcanons.
Many zoomers insisted that the characters were trans and if they weren't trans then they'd definitely accept and love them for being trans. It's never worth arguing with them. I mean you could but most tend to leave the fandom within a year…but another zoomer tranny will take their place.
The same discord's admin would message me telling me how she hates how far some of the members take the shit way too seriously. It being art and headcanons but she was too nice to tell them to stfu once in a while.
That's almost every fandom discord now sadly.
The characters' popularity is solely based on how easy it is to headcanon them as trans in most discords. The twinkier or the more androgyn the better for them because then it's easier to selfinsert and transwash them. And god beware if a show ever gets a character that hints on being trans in any way (regardless if this was even the intention or if it's just crossdressing or something), even if the character only appeared for a single minute fans will be all over them and surely even annoy the writers to force them to give that trash more screentime.
It's rarely about actual sympathies anymore, let alone the story, it's just about playing with characters like barbie dolls and transfy them enough to basically turn them into OCs.
The rest is cringe as shit roleplaying done by 30yos that get the characters completely wrong and SCREAM with caps like some autistic 11 year old fans.
Hell I never see men headcanoning female characters as men, I don't know why almost every western female fan has to headcanon male characters as trans (and therefore biological women).
i don't watch cartoons, except disney where this is so apparent but I think for live action there's this annoying ass intense uwu softness to lesbian couples and bi people as well. "UwU this is my soft bean lesbian who kisses another woman once during the whole show!" Or like loki being bisexual being used as some stupid excuse to fuck a version of himself as a woman and never actually do anything bi on screen other than just implying it. Instead of being bi in any way he goes, "I'm just interested in a bit of both uwu hehe" i'm a bi woman but I honestly can't even think of a bi woman i've seen on tv cause the representation for female queers is so shit.
If I had to guess? The problem is a lack of people of those identities writing the show. I feel like when gay men tackled interview with the vampire it went well, but of course moids had to throw in a rape scene for their one female character.
Reading testimonials like this I really have to wonder how young you all are. I'm in my 30's and never come across ridiculous shit like this and most fans in my very popular fandom that I interact with are completely normal and enjoy the characters as they are, I've met maybe one person who had an obsession with headcanoning pretty male characters as trans according to some olympic grade mental gymnastics she (or they
as they prefer!!11) applied and she was a complete zoomer aged 20 or so.
The "rape fetish" meme is a myth. It's not rape if you have full control over it in a play pretend setting and consent to it, the correct word would be ravishment fetish. It's been proven not to be a result of sexual guilt or trauma but instead simply a high sex drive and willingness to engage in more intense sexual activity. If anything, it's men who report a bigger frequency of having a rape fetish i.e. raping a woman forcibly and violently against her will.>>1428143
I feminize and call my pretty bishounens babygirls all the time and I don't cape for trannies kek. Even IRL coomer femboys disgust me. Real men could never compare to the fictional gender of anime boys.
Aside from total semantics on names, There's only one study from 10 years ago using the term rape fantasy with that opinion and the methodology is literally a checklist and questionnaire. so it seems a little more up in the air than proven why an entire gender might experience this sort of thing.
I still think for some, not all since we're not a monolith, this does definitely come from some kind of trauma, be it interpersonal or societal. I mean, you don't just get such high numbers of interest like for a group constantly threatened with rape just because. And idk i just trust years of feminist theory vs one study with honestly really shoddy methodology for measuring societal influence.
>>1426226>Asian fandom spaces aren't some exotic wonderland where everyone is just based and completely drama free
i still think i'd prefer people telling me to kill myself not because they've deluded themselves into thinking i'm seriously an incest supporter or whatever, but because they're honestly just not into my ship >>1405982
my theory: they're mainly placed there for the sake of having a gay character. the writers are probably thinking "okay they're gay so they have to be xy & z so i can show i'm not following stereotypes and but they CAN'T be abc because that'd be offensive :))" instead of writing a character that just so happens to like the same sex.
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>>1428165>Even IRL coomer femboys disgust me. Real men could never compare to the fictional gender of anime boys.
you're like me. i used to hate these types of characters, i wonder what happened to my brain
I hate when male characters are shown crossdressing in canon but the fan art makes them more feminine than they looked and acted in the source media doing that. I see these masculine male characters shown crossdressing in canon each as a one time thing
and also an obvious joke. They don't even shave their facial hair, one of them was literally coerced into it, and both of them look only slightly better put together than the average transbian on HER but in so much fan art they're either basically trapified or even if they do look as obviously male as they look in canon the artist has to remind people that "actually they're nonbinary/trans!!" even though in the rest of the series outside those particular scenes they're literally just men.
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I know what you mean
I am in my 30s too. I even weed out the worst by only joining 18+ discords but even there it's happening.
The example above was from one of such discords and just a while ago I witnessed it multiple times on tumblr and twitter. I happened to see it because one of them stirred up shit against the creator while the other cases were just people reblogging shit and making it end up in my timeline.
Another common thing is feminization in art. I don't follow the artists but someone either reblogs it or I just want to browse the tag of my fav to find art of him but instead I get tranny shit or him being drawn with huge female hentai tits and women on tumblr/twitter praising it because they think that acting like a porn-addicted coomer was some great achievement.
Legit wish there were some 30+ fan discords.
Was the other way around for me, I preferred twinks as teen but can't stand them anymore. I either want women or actual men now. I like masculine women but feminized men are a turn-off and they are never sexy imo.>>1428642
Anime men don't look like men just as anime women don't look like real women. Even men from seinen don't look like humans in real life. And they have more interesting personalities and roles anyway.
My tinfoil theory is that it's just blatant homo hate disguised as moral crusade against fujos.
I see homophobic male boomers and fujo haters from dumblr getting upset about the exact same fanarts and pairings all the time.
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when you say "twink" what do you mean, cause I feel like that term gets applied to any male that isn't either obese or a steroid freak, I prefer young fit males with natural muscles, would you consider picrel a twink
, most of the fujo hate coming from other women (i.e. not homophobic dudebros who hate everything to do with female autonomy) is just the blatant dislike of not being able to self insert which is why they always go for the "you just have internalized misogyny" accusation or attempt to act morally superior to them. Some of it is blatant homophobia, some of it is both. For example Paki-chan hates fujos because they're not tradwife level pure waifus liking normal heterosexual relationship like the kind she wants with Varg Vikernes.
nta but can you stop lying, im a fujo and omega is def a popular genre.
Do you know how many popular bl stories i see and when i click on them its omega.
no its not, omegaverse is a popular category in yaoi, in fact id say its the fourth most popular (with size gaps, supernatural and mafia storys taking first,second and third)
some anons here dont understand that when we are talking about the uke being feminized we arent just talking about physically the uke looking like a underage tomboy (i ignore stories like that anyway since i find them creepy) what i have a problem with is when in a yaoi story they literally give them a straight misogynistic relationship with power imbalances and the uke is obviously being treated like a woman and being judged for the things a woman would be judged for meanwhile the seme is allowed to act like a man.
Not her but I have never encountered an omegaverse fanfic in my life. Not for the fandoms I am into, that is. I don't search for it so don't quote me on that since there are surely some, but to claim that it was a large part is fucking bullshit.
Show me screenshots of fics for series like Jojo, Golden Kamuy, Yuri on Ice or whatever before the Omega filtering and afterwards because I highly doubt they are more than 5%.
There are tons of posts in the vent threads. Don't try to pretend fujos were all a hivemind to shit on them.>that’s why so many fujos are tifs now
And those that troon out that I witnessed were almost always fans that feminize characters before, rarely the fans that stick to the canon designs and behavior. Feminization is a sign of self-inserting. They need so self-insert so they turn one character into a feminized guy, the next step is adding hips and tits, the final step is reversing everybody's gender or turning men to transfems or transmen.
What you say makes no sense because trannys transwash characters, which means that they are literally turning male characters to female characters. This is the exact opposite of what a fujo is.
Just because these people are everywhere and invade our spaces doesn't mean that they are fujos. It's not gate-keeping, there is a very clear definition of what a fujo is and shipping a woman with cut-off tits with a man is not it.
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i dont have to show any proof because you are delusional, no matter what i show, you will still say ''n-no its only a small percentage''.
I follow yaoi accounts on social media and i use multiple manga sources and the amount of trending comics that have omega/alpha shit are way too much for it to just be 5%.
why are you so mad at me saying omegaverse is popular, you do realize that me saying this is not criticizing yaoi right so chill out.
Im not saying yaoi is all about feminized ukes but i do agree that there is 1/4 storys like that, me saying this doesnt mean i hate yaoi or want to genocide fujos so i hope you understand before you rage reply like a brainless cow.
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I'm talking about a different type of "feminization" of male characters though, It's drawing male characters with weirdly female physical characteristics, like pecs shaped like large breasts, thin waists, and thick hips, it seems to be them putting female characteristics onto male bodies. Sometimes they also make the male characters lactate and get pregnant
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Yeah I see this shit everywhere and I hate it. I never witnessed it 10 years ago, at least not in fujo spaces, it's either a new phenomenon or wasn't popular and not nearly as common back then.
I can't believe that with all the art others draw per day I am starved of m/m fanart even when I am searching for art for fujos or made by fujos because gay isn't woke enough more or something, must be hetero with extra steps.
>>1428926>By this logic trannies are the gender they claim to be just because they might look like one on a surface level
No because troons are real and yaoi moids are just drawings, so they can be anything. Going by your
logic, since futanari characters have a perfect set of male and female genitals, or since anime traps look exactly like a girl except for the dick, that must be possible in real life too.
Like it or not, people's artistic creations reveal much more than what's on the surface of a person's mind, or more than what an artist wants/intends to reveal. And it doesn't have to fit the laws of reality because drawings don't necessarily represent what's real.
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>>1429531>posting niche small-creator omegaverse manhwas,
what the fuck are you talking about that manhwa is very popular. Maybe stop reading only mangas made in the early 2000's. Looks like im not the one who needs to search. You're not used to people disagreeing with you, well get used to it, this is lolcow.>>1429930
i just hate how many talented fujo artists waste their talent and create those abominations, i am reading full volume and and i really like that manhwa and the art is good but the artist gave the uke extremely HUGE boobs and female hips, it took me atleast 30 chapters for me to get used to the uke's appearance.
I actually really like this story it is very smutty and it has consensual sex but the anatomy of the uke ruins it, he looks like a cow kek.
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I think it comes from the same place as young women calling middle aged actors terms like "babygirl" or "my precious mew mew", their headlogic is that if they infantilize their male crushes they can somehow flip the obvious power imbalance, its almost a Foucauldian approach
>>1430039>as young women calling middle aged actors terms like "babygirl" or "my precious mew mew"
I never understood that bullshit and it always drives me up a wall but I am not allowed to say anything or else it would cause an uproar.
I fucking hate infantilization so fucking much it's my most hated fandom problem together with trans-washing and I don't think it's a coincidence that both of this shit appeared at the same time and is usually done by the same fucking people. Fandom trannies are all about CUTE BABYGIRL uwuuu my malewife mommy
It legit disgusts me and if I ever saw someone talking like this about me I would resort to violence.
I agree. I've always found this kind of thing insincere.
It's the more benign counterpart to men pretending to be masochists and performatively lusting after older women because it's seen as a less threatening way to be a creep (see all the 'step on me mommy' crap on twitter).
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The IASIP fandom is weird as fuck for being an old and (formerly) polarizing show full of middle aged men, it’s filled with ftm zoomers obsessed with Mac x Dennis
Despite being a waxy faced rapist, Dennis is “meow mow babygirl” bc most of the fandom wants to see Mac fuck him and every single Aiden pushed the fandom into collectively deciding Charlie is a ftm (not helped by the fact that the show is pushing “non-cis” Charlie a bit because they want to be seen as “twaaaaaaans and lgbt fwendly”.)
I wanna blame Rob and his desperation for praise and I hope Jimmi Simpson having an Emmy and he doesn’t chaps his ass. I wanna blame him for everything wrong with the last few seasons of Sunny though I’m sure it’s Glenn, Charlie and that one girl from community’s fault too.
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The vast majority of the fandom ships mac and Dennis, minus a little chunk of Charlie self inserters who think they’re “just like him a trans chaos goblin uwu” and ship mac and Charlie instead because they don’t see him as the actual dickhead who stalked a woman and had orgies with 20 year old girls and is a huge misogynist dickhead like the rest of the cast.
>1500+ fics for a sitcom ship
Funny thing is that it makes more sense than fucking Castiel and Johnlock though. Didn’t see Dean from supernatural busting nuts into a plastic replica of castiels asshole.
>>1430486>Funny thing is that it makes more sense than fucking Castiel and Johnlock though.
Which is evidence that 'making sense' does not make a good ship. Mac clearly canonically wants to bang Dennis but Dennis rejects Mac constantly, and the gang never grow or improve as people. There is no way to ship them without doing some wild contortionist mental gymnastics.
That said re Johnlock, I've always been utterly repulsed by them because they are hideous old men, and I assumed the ship was based off proximity and nothing else. But then I watched Sherlock and realised there was legit gaybait throughout and they were coming for the fujo audience, so I don't really see the issue with them being shipped based on that (appearances aside).
Ok anon this is maybe a hard concept to grasp but characters aren't real. A character IS their aesthetics and tropes unlike human beings who have the inherent deep that comes with being actually alive and having free will. When something is just a bunch of tropes and aesthetic you can be whatever even contradictory things. So yeah there are male characters that are female in every aspect and even shaped by fictional equivalent of misoginy or actual misoginy
except maybe a pronoun and short hair.
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>>1430064>the intention isn't so much to feminize (tho that is the effect) but to sexualize, it's just that the only blueprint of heavy sexualization we have is for women
that partially explains the bara tiddies meme
holy fuck, anon, relax. I literally said its not universal like can you read? i get you're triggered
by using a different term, but you completely derailed the reply about fuck all. the only people calling it a "ravishment fetish" are stupid sex tip articles reddit threads, which maybe you should consider going back to since that's probably where u got it. not even the dogshit lib fem, sex positive biased questionnaire study you cited and obviously didn't read calls it this term, so idk why you're so up my ass about it anon. Like why are you acting like i'm using deeply offensive language by using it if its what you're citing? fuck off to being a pedantic redditor or engage with the actual fandom topic instead of just repeating what i say with a different word and going "its disproven cause i say so. trust me, bro."
>I wonder what it would take to create an asshole female protagonist who does terrible shit (just like moid protagonists in media for males) and gets lots of female fans.
I'm not going to watch this because I hate asshole protags and this isn't the type of movie that would get a fandom, but I read the plot summary, and you know those stories about a married middle aged man who fucks up his entire life because he's a philandering douchebag who can't stop chasing 20 year old girls, yeah, Tar (actually Tár) is that movie except the protag is a middle aged lesbian. And she's a world famous music composer and conductor vs a some lame writer or professor. And she's played by Cate Blanchett.
And this makes me feel like someday, even if I do not live to see that day, we will get that fandom asshole female protag. That female Rick or Walter White.
I'd rather a female Raylan Givens, or in another lane, a female Magneto or Deadpool, though.
Was looking forward to seeing this movie. I feel like these types of movies don't tend to garner fandoms though except for maybe a small group of lesbian or bi women. It's just not the same
The only characters I can think that are like that and have fans is like maybe Olivia from spiderverse
Male barafags, or I could really just say males in general, have zero taste or sensuality, I don't even want to see the shit they draw. They're so autistically in love with individual body parts, it's like >>1429907
on steroids of nipples the size of a head and hyperdicks and blown out assholes.
I like sexy drawn men as much as the next nonny
, and I even like giant pecks with tiny waists, but I'd rather stay silent if I had the sexual sensibility of a male drawing giant dongs and tits on stickmen in MSPaint
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That's a weird thing to say, a lot of women are attracted to typically masculine features like stockiness, stubby hands, hairy chests, wide build etc. I do like my men more feminine, elegant and regal looking but that sometimes doesn't even feel like a popular opinion on lc, let alone irl.
you are comparing a man having a pretty face or wearing makeup to men who have wide hips or huge tits. Do you even hear yourself.
Sure i guess they somehow look good in art, but men with wide hips and big boobs look absolutely disgusting and deformed in real life and the only ones who lust after them are men who are bisexual or tranny chasers.
Femininity and female body shapes are sexy, masculinity and male body shapes are disgusting.>>1430883
You're not exactly wrong, provided that they just look like short curvy "aidens" but they're still actual males and have functional male genitalia. And why mention fat? Fatties are profoundly unattractive regardless.
Which is why men like Chris Hemsworth are incedibly unpopular among women…? kek
Just accept that you're more into women.
John Boyega is fat and ugly, of course no one is attracted to that.>>1430961
Forced meme, it's men who shill him as attractive because they have no idea what women actually want.>>1430963
Feminine clothing is meant to flatter and enhance naturally feminine beauty.
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You’d have to be mentally out of pocket to ship iasip characters anyway but Im sure Rob Macelhenny is salivating at the e-peen stroking he’d get on Twitter so I wouldnt be surprised if these two DID get together.
Johnlock is based on tumblr kids assigning queerness to literally almost nothing, never saw anything but delusion there. Both ships are shit, I just meant that Mac and Dennis do act like degenerate fags with eachother and the writers run with it, while the Sherlock / Supernatural fujos force some sort of inane conspiracy and throw a conniption.
Funny thing, there’s a huge chunk of the Johnlock fandom specifically that migrated to the MacDennis fandom in 2018 and I have absolutely no clue why. These shows and ships have nothing in common except ugly middle aged men.
>>1431081>>1430514>never saw anything but delusion there
You're lying or you forgot the episodes. I only atched the first two seasons way back then and many of the side characters were legit wondering if John and Sherlock weren't a gay couple, and they do have a bunch of scenes where it's obvious they care for each other. It's not even queerbait, it's pure fujobait because despite everything it was obviously never going to be canon but it's not invented by the fans. It's like saying teenage girls shipping Naruto and Sasuke are inventing shit despite everything going on between them and the accidental kiss in chapter 2 or 3. Everyone knows that the superior Johnlock
pairings are fromthe original books and from Dai Gyakuten Saiban anyway.
By the way I've heard a lot about that sunny in Philadelphia show because of tumblr, they were completely normal posts back then posted by Americans just watching it on TV and finding it funny but I've never seen a single episode. Is it actually good? I'm in the mood for stupid sitcoms.
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>>1430662>female in every aspect
I mean…look: if it has a dick, then it is male. There are no other "aspects" of female than being
female; there's no such thing as a "pseudo-female". You either are or you aren't. If you understand these characters aren't real, then I don't see why you immediately contradict yourself and claim them to be women because they…look and act feminine, as women are expected to do.
Feminine ≠ woman. Weak and/or submissive ≠ woman. Acting like a woman stereotype ≠ woman. Artist thinking of a "woman", drawing a "woman", then giving it a dick + flat chest and calling it male ≠ woman, because they're thinking of stereotypes and not reality.
To deny any of this is to admit you believe there's a specific way women act and appear. I should hope nobody that regularly uses LC is that small-minded.
Anon is talking about men's bodies being unattractive, period. She didn't say "Just 2D men tho!! I like IRL men uwu", and she insulted real life men too.
It's fine to just like dick but prefer women's bodies sexually, enough of this forced het BS.
It turned to shit after season 12 when one of the main three guys was clearly tired of it and went off to go star in some decent to mediocre NBC sitcom.
But up to then, gotta be one of the funniest shows I’ve ever seen on tv.
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despite being the same age as these people, I just don't understand modern fandom discussions, its all either about shipping and character tropes, I get the feeling that these people don't even like the shows they watch, they just about the imagined "relationship dynamic" between a few key characters and then trying to accuse people who don't like what they like of having a moral failing or being racist or being homophobic
>>1431187>Is it actually good? I'm in the mood for stupid sitcoms
Easily one of the funniest shows I've seen. If you just pick one episode to try, watch The Nightman Cometh. I don't think the first three seasons are very funny tbh but the rest is the best.>>1431258
I don't think it turned to shit except for season 15, it just had fewer amazing episodes per season. But Times Up For the Gang from 13 and Dee Day from 14 are top 10 episodes to me.
>>1431725>Why was it so controversial?
It's Star Wars, everything there is controversial. The fandom is such a steaming pile of shit that even I sometimes witnessed the fallout caused by the newest flame wars the fans got into and I don't even watch SW.
I know people who are in Star Wars discords for no other reason than to observe the constant drama and make screenshots of it to amuse others.
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>>1428543>18-year-old former assassin from the Diamond Syndicate. His former lover Count Larken told him not to return until he could kill Bancoran, but ended up reforming and becoming Bancoran's lover. He has a ferocious temper and seethes with jealousy whenever a bishōnen is in Bancoran's vicinity. He beats up Bancoran on a regular basis, regardless of whether or not he cheats, and somehow got pregnant twice, despite being completely male.>In the manga he first gets pregnant in volume 10, and a second time in volume 46. He is an expert knife user, and his looks and body allow him to easily pass for a woman with only Patalliro and Bancoran being able to see through his disguise.>Jack Barbarosa Bancoran>Major Bancoran of the British MI6. Nicknamed "Bishōnen Killer" for his ability to seduce young men with just his eyes. Patalliro questioned Bancoran to discern if he was interested in his mother, but Bancoran stated that he was only attracted to men. Meeting Patalliro has changed his existence; after playing bodyguard to the most annoying person he's ever met, he's now living with Maraich, who tried to kill him, and their son Figaro. Bancoran is known for his blue eyeshadow (purple in Patalliro Saiyuki), his long black hair, and the fact that he never takes off his gloves, even in bed. His name comes from Henri Bencolin.
so we have>draw a girl, call it a boy>give the boy the ability to pregnant >yet still insist its male
many blonde people do look like each other so the twitter OP is jokingly saying that any blondexblonde ship is incest>>1431905>>1431334
She is obviously trolling though. I'm not saying that you have to find it funny but many farmers fails to recognize obvious trolls. It's fair to call the joke tasteless and gross but it's silly to think that she actually believes this
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tbf its hard to tell with the average twittertard, you have people who unironically believe shit like picrel or how good looking thin black wwomen promote white supremacy
these people call themselves woke yet they completely erase the existence of bisexual people or bisexuality……thats not woke.
Who is going to tell them that only bisexuality was allowed and homosexuality was frowned upon.
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I'm not white but I don't live don't in the west either(i have seen white people though and some of my relatives are also blonde and brown haired), I don't get this mentality tbh, the characters are different in every way, they don't have the same shade of hair color from what I remember, is seems like an autistic reason to dislike a ship, it reminds me a lot Andrew Dobson who also had an autistic fixation on hair color
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If anyone's wandering why Dobson hasn't further humiliated himself in the last few years, its cause he had to move back in with his parents, who forced him to get off the internet and get a job
picrel is my favorite Dobson moment btw, he posted this in a reply to Zelda Williams talking about how bad she felt because it was the anniversary of her losing her dad
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We were talking about a yaoi con in Paris in the mundane thread and it made me check their website, their guests and the events and:
>many of the guests are enby or he/him fakebois
>one of the two important guests is a BL and shojo/josei mangaka but the manga that's heavily promoted is straight shit about some AGP neet guy who wants to be more more kawaii uguu than his breadwinner gf
>another guests is a drag queen who took it so far he became a HSTS tranny, is probably too normie for the audience anyway
>one of the panels is called "identités de genre et fandoms, au Japon et au-delà" which translates to "gender identity and fandoms, in Japan and beyond"
>another panel about muh gender in cosplay on tiktok
That's it, we're doomed. Tumblr was a fucking mistake because even though I'm not going to cons anymore I still have to see shit like this online and in bookstores irl in my own country.
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I'm not a wokeoid but Wako(the bf) is not an an AGP neet, he knows he's male, he's refereed to as male and confident in his identity, he likes adrogynous fashion and make up(and he never tires dressing as a woman), the name of the series used to be My Androgynous Boyfriend, it was only in the last three years where gender wokies changed the title, as well as deliberately changing the translations
the story isn't BL but it some agp perv story either
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samefag, wako isn't a NEET either(I don't know where people are getting that from) he's a store clerk and part time model, its stated that he out earns his gf, he just has far more flexible hours that allows him to help with the housework more often, the only BL aspect of the series is the fact that his boss promotes this image that he's dating a gay cause she believes that if his fans knew he had a girlfriend it would harm their brand, he's not bothered by it either he's just not fond of lying
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did you mean klance
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This is the guy he gets shipped with, he's also an alt model who presents this cool and mysterious image, but in reality he's just a straight dude whose into curvy women >>1432227>Then the French publishing company fucked up because the summary made it seem like he was a useless neet who got his allowance from his wife who is always working overtime (yes there's an emphasis on that).
That's strange cause they have literally exact opposite of that dynamic you described, the bf greatly admires how much hard work the heroine puts in her job, but she earns jackshit cause she works as a manga editor
fucking dobson. The time he got mad at his now ex gf's family for celebrating Hanukkah and how her little nephew was missing out on Christmas and he just wanted to go home. Then she revealed her family bent over backwards just to make him happy that day. Moving dinner to earlier in the day so he could still drive while it's light out cause he's too scared to drive at night kek
and just like >>1432197
said, Momson and Dadson probably cut down the internet and forced him to get a job. Judging from family photos, they were old as fuck (and this was only in 2013ish or so) so slumming it at his parent's mansion (cause yes dobson grew up well off) isn't a long-term solution.
Dobson is just a fucking idiot who believes that era, where Nintendo had cartoons, is 100% canon to the lore of the characters.
this. it's a valid
tinfoil to think that people who suck at art put a bunch of gendie bullshit into it in hopes that they get attention for their subpar art. same as drawing characters a different race (even though this is sometimes done really well) or fat.
Reading through his old Deviantart posts, he's 100% on the spectrum. I mean yes you get that conclusion through his comics but his journals are very telling.
he threw a chair at a coworker because they spoiled harry potter for him lol and at the same job he fell asleep, full out on the floor and was shocked he got in trouble for that.
He's a mix of never being held accountable by mom and dad, leading into his adult life of being aghast that others actually will hold him accountable and riddled with the tism>>1432352
It's always "I'm just drawing for fun!" but also "I like, worked REALLY hard on this." so the "Just having fun" is to deflect crit but the "I worked really hard" can be played up when they get asspats. And it looks like it was drawn by a 14-year-old but they are 25 or some shit
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he actually greatly admired her and robin williams, he just sent this to her as a “here, this’ll make you laugh and cheer up!”
This was the reason why Ayato/Yae
took off, people saw a kawaii blue/pink ship
and subsequently cried heterophobia
when they were ridiculed for their terrible taste and nonsensical ship forcibly wubufying two incompatible characters.>>1432380
I'm not actually sure if Dobson is actually autistic or just brought up sheltered and spoiled. He's a big manchild for sure, but he's always given off more of an entitled bitch vibe than autistic. Further proven by the fact that he cleaned up his act after his parents forced him to get a job and go offline.
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This ship is heading towards klance territory and it be so entertaining to watch. >>1432266
Zutara shippers just did every klance did first (tinfoiling, brainrot, meltdown when it wasn't canon and finally harassing the creators). Zutara shippers are now Reylo shippers.
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>Same, I keep saying to my friends how I want a female equivalent of the Magnificent Bastard trope, a villain who is all intelligence and manipulation without any god damn fanservice or “she’s so smart she uses her wiles against men” like no I want a sexless but not an androgynous, Ayden-baiting woman. Give me something like female Light Yagami or Aizen Sosuke who is a major villain and doesn’t undress or wears skimpy shit.
I want more female characters like pic related (Marie from Innocent by Shinichi Sakamoto). I also liked the girls in Eizouken. Moids will criticize characters like this for being written "like men" because they only see women as sex dolls and have 0 interest in, or interaction with our inner lives, they don't know women can be weirdos, autists, or unhinged in many flavors. Or simply beings beyond our sex appeal. Male hero fantasy and villain characters aren't realistic representations anyway (that's why they're likeable lmao). Gonna add one last thing. I have in fact seen female characters be appreciated by other women, even in a series like Danganronpa with coomerbait waifus, I don't think it's as rare as anons assume. Depends on the series and its fandom in my experience. It's been stated but I'm not surprised if male characters get the spotlight from female fans since the reverse is true with the parallel type of waifu having male fan, it's sexuality. But more appreciation for fictional women would be great, and more based unhinged female characters.
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This reminds of Anita Sarkeesian claiming she didn't like Fury Road and specifically the character of Furiosa, her claim was that Furiosa's gender was not central to her identity, that her role could easily have been gender swapped and that using violence to resolve problems is a male-centric behavior that it actually glorifies masculinity
She's sort of making a good point, not about that character specifically but sometimes I feel like mainstream movies' attempts at strong female characters mash together the worst traits ie. keeping the women sexualized while simultaneously implying they must be stronger than men, and like men to be empowered. But I do enjoy seeing violent, chaotic female characters so it's not about them not existing but there does seem to be a jump towards this idea of empowerment = male values when a strong female character could alternately still be gentle, still be reserved and "feminine" but in a way that is true to that type of real women's personalities instead of male submissive waifu fantasies. Again tho I don't think I agree with her about this character or about all
strong female characters that's just something I noticed as a woman who can't relate to the "strong powerful women" writers default to as the main depiction of female strength lately
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It's the wrong choice of character to say that about for sure. It'd be better if she said it about one like Black Widow imo that's who I always think of for strong female characters handled poorly
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Why are Americans so obsessed with the idea of gender binarity? That is especially true for Noelle Stevenson, who added a flamboyant genderless lizard in her show. The character still sounds obviously male to me.
I've heard that they wanted to make his color scheme the non binary flag at some point as well
I've had scrotes unironically explain to me that m/m ships are making them "uncomfortable" because it's "fetishizing male friendships". It's extremely telling when this never
happens with male/female friendships, literally nobody ever got mad and said "can't they just be friends" about them. Especially with child characters, everyone thinks it's cute when it's a little boy and a little girl crushing on each other like kids often do, but when it's two kids of the same gender it's suddenly degenerate and "sexualizing children".
What? Did you never have male friends as a kid?
Nobody will ever accept opposite-sex friendships as friendships.
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It is the default, less then 4% of the human race shows same sex attraction, this also extends to other primates, your using the same logic troons use to justify them everywhere in media
I haven't seen the show so idk if the character acts/sounds male, but>introduce "genderless" character>looks like a conventionally attractive androgynous/flat chested woman
Every time. It's like they know people will be put off if they actually add more male looking features.
Yes, and humans also can't use magic, elves don't exist, Simpsons couldn't be yellow and time travel isn't possible. Women make up 50+% of all population yet you statistically barely see them as protagonists or key plot characters, not to mention white people being only 57% of the US population yet always being the lead role. What the fuck kind of scrotey redditoid gotcha is this supposed to be?>>1434378
Go back to /pol/
first off im masculine knock it off with the assumptions and dont break your nails over your savior complex or whatever gay moids hate you btw. do i have to fucking blog my entire goddamn life for the love of christ everytime i express hatred over faggots someone says oh she must hate butches piss off im not pakichan i dont hate fujos i hate straight moids too i hate all males do you fucking understand ? jesus christ. i dont have anything in common with fags besides being gnc ( which straight people can also be ) and same sex attracted meaning not the same sex as them. i do not want to have anything to with any type of man holy shit i just like women. and i didnt choose to move here btw since you want to know about my life so bad >>1434465
damn i take it back that they're overrepresented i know better now but you're seriously telling me to kill myself over not liking a type of man like really
because i get shit like>you're so brave and you definitely have nothing in common with the average woman-hating, gay-bashing, pedophile-loving muzzie moid.>so you CHOSE to move to a muzzie country>as a 'lesbian'
like wtf ??? i'll stop now i'm sorry for shitting up the thread but i need to clear myself from these accusations even if this is anonymous kek i cant let people think reply numberwhatever is a muzzie loving polilez or whatever you think i am
last reply sorry but but also>I also have to wonder if they would be okay with butch4butch lesbian couples or if it's just the girly best friends lesbians they count as homosexuals they can accept.
i addressed it already but this is the s