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/snow/ - flakes & mistakes

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No. 831551

A thread for the discussion of PetYoutubers. Better known as people who hoard and neglect animals for youtube fame. Some frequently discussed ones are:

Tyler Rugge
- Has over 30 animals.
- Supports Taylor Nicole Dean
- Keeps animals in too small enclosures.
- Keeps a single rabbit in a room without hides and barely any enrichment.
- Queen of the mean girls of pettube
- Pretty much confirmed that Maddie Smith and him are living together.

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/tylerrugge/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tylerrugge/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/tylerrugge

Happy Tails AKA Megan Arriola
(Had her own thread here: >>612216 Due to lack of content she has been merged back into this thread.)
- Has over 100 animals.
- Keeps her animals in a small room with way under minimum enclosures.
- Advises not to listen to veterinary advice, like not spaying and neutering rabbits.
- Backyard breeds dogs, purposefully mixed two breeds together and justified it by saying they're designer and "these breeds are really in right now".
- Breeds a potentially harmful gene (merle) into her dogs
- Uses aerosol products and paints her nails in the same room as her birds.
- Feeds her animals mostly fruits and vegetables without proper supplementation.
- Her bird almost died due to poor diet (vet literally put it on seed because it was too thin from bad diet).
- Had her snake and bird out on her body during livestream.
- Some of her cages have exposed wire and splotchy/peeling paint.
- Charges an OUTRAGEOUS amount for 'consultation' when she has 0 credentials and can't even say she does her own research for her own animals.
- Extremely rude to supporters and shuts down every question that she can with a snarky remark.
- Put two male mice together, ignores advise and says they'll be fine.

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa_17EwmmHm7FJtIn57c9-w
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/meghan_happytails/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/meghan_arriola
Blog: http://www.mjhappytails.com/

Brian Barczyk
- Hoards, breeds, and a lot of reptiles, that are often bad quality and sick.
- Keep them on little plastic containers, justifying it with saying 'they like it that way'.
- Inbreeds and shows little concern for genetics outside of producing colour morphs that will sell for $$$.
- Bullies costumers if they dare to call him out for the shitty conditions his animals have when they arrived.
- Both Tyler Rugge and Taylor Nicole Dean have made collabs with him.
- Got kicked out of playlist for bringing in a baby gator and snake to scare/prank people with.
- Buys two-headed animals.
- Used his two-headed turtles death as clickbait in a video.
- Opened his own reptile zoo.

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4zS1wbO81p59CxKL7CQAcA
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/snakebytestv/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/snakebytestv

- Complains about lolcow and similar sites, describing them as predators waiting for petubers to slip up. Which is ironic because after bizarre selfposting she was
outed as being a frequent user of this site. She criticized the care of several petubers, including herself. See this post for a full explanation and her post
history: >>624638
- Throws a lot of subtle shade at other pet youtubers despite pretending to be 'friends' with them all.
- Moved to America to live with hoarder BYB boyfriend Danny.
- Won't show habitats for most of her and Danny's animals, keeping the exact number of animals a secret. Some examples of enclosures not shown include; Snapping
turtle, snakes, and (unseen) monitor lizards.
- Thought she could cycle a fish tank with old water, put two betta together to 'breed' despite clearly knowing nothing about breeding and conditioning the fish.
- Keeps her doves in the bare minimum of cages, also keeps them next to ferrets and has let them land on the ferret cage before.
- Was paid off to set up an awful Bearded dragon enclosure including substrate that can cause impaction.
- Recently got a puppy.

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCE37328iVnqSj1OCrgrYd8w
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emzoticofficial/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/emzoticofficial

AfroHerpkeeper AKA Daniel Carter
- Has over 100 animals while going to college and balancing a job. (Including a cottonmouth, rattlesnake, tegu, and two quaker parrots.
- Gives animals away and continues to get more.
- Keeps his rattlesnake in an enclosure without a lock.
- Has snakes in too small enclosures.
- He lets his tegu free roam in his reptile room without supervision. On one occasion his tegu ate an escaped western hognose snake. Recently took his tegu to the
vet because he thought that he ate escaped ball python. Good news he didn't eat the snake. Bad news, the snake is still missing and it ate one of his quail.
- Waited to get vet care for a snake with a hole in its face, because he didn't have the money.
- Continues to get new animals.
- Feeds his snakes live prey.
- Imgur album containing more information including animals he has and animal deaths: https://imgur.com/a/0QGArOd

Youtuber: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu4LCfhUyUg56aS2hWdUZhw
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afroherpkeeper/

Maddie Smith
- Hoards animals, and at one time had over 50. Recently downsized to 30 in order to move in with Tyler Rugge.
- Justifies her hoarding by saying all her animals are taken to the vet.
- Back Yard Bred her rats, but claims she is no longer breeding. She ended up with sick baby rats.
- Recently got two doves; one got sick and died. She blamed the breeder and 'genetic' illness despite environmental being much more likely. Subsequently she got
another bird from a 'better breeder' to replace it, didn't quarantine properly and that bird is now also very sick.
- Is a 'wildlife rehabber'; although is listed as 'social media adviser' on their poorly made site. Charity was also only registered in Ohio in September 2017.
- In her December 2017, “Meet My Pets” video she said her rabbit died from a viral infection; Coccidia. Coccidia is a parasite the is spread from improper hand

Youtue: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqfMfdjGotIXbDey-sW9olA
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mxddiesmith/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/mxddiemoo

Steff J AKA Estefany Jasso
- Hoards animals.
- Was gifted two puppies and kept them even though she didn't have the space for them.
- House is literally crammed with animals.
- Killed all her fish once when she flea bombed her house to get rid of the fleas her roaming cats had brought in.
- Lets her turtles breed, found a nest they'd made unsupervised outside with most of the eggs being eaten by ants.
- Had one of her tortoises die. Was supposed to nebulize the tortoise every 8 hours, instead said she went to sleep for 21 and 'someone else did it'.
- Let her duck eat Styrofoam while yelling at it from across the room.
- Keeps her turtles in tiny cages.
- Keeps most of her animals in filthy conditions.

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/estefanyjass0
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the_steffj/

Carolin von Petzholdt
- Keeps parrots. Has actively lost her parrot Hope numerous times on camera.
- Flies her Parrot Hope in public parks around dogs and as such has been chased by dogs and accosted by dog owners more than once.
- Doesn't train her parrot to fly back to her on a signal, merely screams randomly.
- Has had Hope both chase native birds and be chased by native birds during her free flying, resulting in Hope being lost at least twice from this.
- Has sexually molested her bird on camera; doesn't seem to understand that touching a birds vent is frustrating for the animal and essentially bestiality.
- Films people on camera and posts to youtube without their permission.
- Wants to breed her birds.

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/excitingfilms/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/carolinvonpetzholdt/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvonpetzholdt

Maria's Zoo

- Smokes weed in the same room as her pets and defended Taylor Nicole Dean when she smoked around her geckos. Claims the smoke doesn't linger.
- Claims to be a rat expert after one semester on them in school.
- “Rescued” rats from the feeder bin. One turned out to be pregnant and had two babies. Maria had them out playing with them shortly after they were born. One baby
died. Mom and babies were kept in a glass aquarium. Recently moved mom and surviving baby back into the cage with the other rat.
- Constantly begs for money on social media to pay for her animal hoard, but has money for hair dye, make-up, video games, and other frivolous things.
- Claims she cannot keep a job due to her mental health but that it doesn't stop her from taking care of her animals.

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/iSeeAM/featured
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marias.zoo/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/marias_zoo

Previous Thread: >>730730

Taylor Nicole Dean Thread: >>>/pt/676017

No. 831646

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Brady, you are an idiot and an enabler. Anyone who gives this much money expects something in return

No. 831658

Thank you for the thread anon! I’ve found Maria to really embody a few of the problematic pettuber behaviors.

Hey, at least she finally bought her rats a decent cage with the money.

No. 831659

Does not make the means she got it right no matter what good it did. The idea is that if she cannot provide the means to care for them properly on her own, she should not have them. She can’t keep begging for money over every little thing.

No. 831661

Oh trust me I hate how pettubers rely on their, often young, fan base for money. I am glad the poor animals have a better enclosure, but she took a page from Taylor’s book, and “rescued” some feeders to pat herself on the back.

No. 831662

Definitely shouldn’t go without and be stuck in an improper housing situation but the way she went about it was wrong. Even if she can’t get a job and needs them to “help her depression” she should do what’s best for them. They aren’t toys. They’re living beings that deserve better than she can provide.

No. 831670

Emma sampson should have been added to the top header. Along with some other pettubers in the last thread (ie taylor crane, paul cuffaro, nick and paul..etc). The information there is outdated and almost invalid and some people are almost never topics of conversation anymore like maddie smith

No. 831709

Noticed emilee getting quite a few new additions, sequoia is fucking beautiful though so maybe I’m just jealous

No. 831828

Anyone read carolins new book yet?

No. 831884

Why would anyone here support her by buying it?

No. 831915

File: 1562257157799.jpeg (97.58 KB, 750x390, 5CEC177B-CA7B-4A14-81F3-DC84D1…)

She needs to go inpatient somewhere or at least get this taken care of. Yikes

No. 831926

She just went to the hospital last week for help, they clearly didn’t find her in need of inpatient, usually you have to be threatening suicide or self harming for them to make you go inpatient. But shes been talking about waiting for a call from the hospital she went to so maybe she’s on a waiting list for something?

No. 831931

File: 1562259492277.jpeg (756.01 KB, 1242x1885, 543EEF6E-21F3-4A9B-8864-0E15C9…)

Found her check in at the hospital on fb

No. 831962

She really shares too much online.

No. 831973

In Emzotic's latest video about her puppy's diet, she showed her kitchen area and there are at least two decent-sized tanks (seemingly fish tanks) on the goddamn kitchen counters. Is there a single area of this woman's house that isn't loaded with animals? The cellar is apparently full of animals we know nothing about, and every other room she ever shows is stocked floor to ceiling. I virtually cannot imagine how only she and her creepy husband give all these animals and their enclosures the attention they need. They really disturb me.
They clearly have a lot of money though. This raw food plan her puppy is on is $13 a DAY (so close to $400 a month?), and I'm sure that doesn't even include shipping, which has to be expensive because it's next-day and packed with ice packs.

No. 832087

File: 1562281485717.jpeg (75.93 KB, 750x422, 1BF72E4A-83ED-43E4-845E-E9F657…)

Well maybe if she didn’t jump on everyone about everything and be so nasty to people then she would have friends to do things with

No. 832109

I'm glad I'm not the only one that finds Em her man really fucking creepy
Like theres jsut something really off about them that I cant quite put my finger on

No. 832214

I hope Maria gets help, I really do. I also know with mental health problems it can be tempting to turn to animals for emptional support. However it is very clear she is not in any state to be caring for the number of animals she currently has.

No. 832308

File: 1562333414145.jpeg (51.9 KB, 749x367, 718B5B42-B0EF-405D-8ECF-75975C…)

I really don’t get how she mistakes genuine concern for a challenge. Like no matter what she does in life, having a million pets to take care of would just make it impossible for her to have that job she keeps whining about not getting. She’s just going in circles with it and enabling herself to stay where she’s at.

No. 832323


Now she knows how her poor rats feel in that tiny cage with nothing to do

No. 832325

File: 1562335333547.jpeg (74.25 KB, 750x348, 7BA8E2A7-2C5D-4050-9580-1D1080…)

And there goes any need for her to get a job. She has a sugar daddy

No. 832332

File: 1562337147122.jpeg (99.3 KB, 750x497, 9786DA4D-E921-4C71-AB59-E0C4EB…)

Loses baby rat and does not understand what she did wrong
Maria: BrEeDiNg RaTs Is My CaLlInG

No. 832333

Whats she going to breed him with? Her feeder rats?

No. 832339


Maria I know you read here: don’t even think about it.
Do you know the genetic background of your Marten rat? What female are you planning on breeding him with, because none of your current females have genetics you should be breeding and you’re certainly not in a position to be getting anymore rats.
Having a large enough cage for your current rats finally, please just focus on them, instead of getting more rats to fill a cage you couldn’t afford to buy yourself. Breeding to ‘sell’ the babies and make a profit is not the right reason to breed, nor is breeding just so your friend can have rats, please direct her to other rats she can adopt instead. Breeding is difficult and you’ve already experienced that first hand losing a baby, it can get a lot worse than that. It can and is costly, time consuming and you need a lot more than a single critter nation to do it properly, so please just don’t - focus on your current rats and giving them a good life before bringing any others into the world.

No. 832349

I could easily see them as that weird predatory couple that approaches a-little-too-drunk girls at the bar to take home for a threesome

No. 832355

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I don’t see her ever being able to move out so maybe this problem will fix itself.

No. 832356

She can't even afford to feed the ones she has. How is she going to feed more?
And the guy sending money is only going to keep sending money every month if he gets nudes or something more out of it.

No. 832357

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literally posts whole life on social media and blocks people who offer criticism
Maria: DoNt TaKe SoCiAl MeDiA sO sErIoUsLy

No. 832456

Maria wants this attention and clearly wants her own thread. Imo we should ignore her unless the information is anything other than her begging for money or being unwell.

No. 832468

That’s literally all she posts. She wants attention she’s gonna get it even though it might not be the kind she wants

No. 832762

What a brat. We get it, you’re special Maria.

No. 832868

File: 1562421240705.jpeg (109.99 KB, 750x713, 5E51CE16-8365-41EF-A7F8-F4A47C…)

Keep playing along, Maria. We think it’s funny anyway

No. 832871

I feel like if she was really studying veterinary medicine she would use the correct terms. Also veterinary medicine is as it sounds - the study of medicine for animals. You are not taught about husbandry because that is not a vets job. This girl is so deluded and uneducated it's actually sad.

No. 832877

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She’s got photos in scrubs tagged at her college. She needs to stop tagging her locations. I looked it up they have a vet tech major. Also her male rats came from her school so she’s in some veterinary field.

No. 832901

Even as a vet tech, she should have a handle on basic animal care and what she doesn’t know she could literally google or ask someone who knows what they’re talking about. In 2019, finding information isn’t hard

No. 832934

There is a big difference between studying veterinary medicine and studying to become a veterinary technician. She obviously knows that and that is why she is so vague - so people think she is studying to become a veterinarian. Irresponsible imo. Again, vet rechs don't learn about husbandry and what they do learn is very vague and often outdated. Spending a whole semester on rat husbandry is an outright lie. I studied Animal Care in college and we would never spend that much time focused on a single animal because then we'd have no time to cover other course material. She just makes shit up to suit her narrative, much like TND. Trash.

No. 832944

Does she have any self-awareness? Complaining about having no friends and not having time for a job while sitting on her computer refreshing this website all day…hot damn.

You're right honestly. Think about how much validation she gets even knowing people think about her at all. All the people we talk about in this thread think they're goddamn celebrities because they're being noticed, when really we only care about their poor animals and them receiving the care they deserve.

No. 832955

The thing is half of this Maria stuff isn't as much about her animals as it is about her not having money and being ill. I understand that it relates to her animal care but there's only so many posts you need before you get the idea imo.

No. 832957

lol, but Em is not that creepy. Maybe danny

No. 832960

It’s the same thing with TND and Jonny and all the other things surrounding it. People still give that as much attention as it needs in order for them to be held accountable, as Maria should be also. Her actions do impact her pets and if she wants to be slandered around the Internet as a poor caretaker and an all around not good person then she can definitely continue to say things that make people believe that. She wants attention she can have it, because it only hurts her in the end

No. 833069

I think she is. She's got the crazycunt eyes for sure.

No. 833109

File: 1562454696114.jpeg (415.99 KB, 1242x1276, E9C30492-235A-4C81-9F3B-B44774…)

Pettube drama ensues. Maria’s original tweet showed up in TNDs thread but I thought this thread was more appropriate for this one since it barely involves Taylor.

No. 833113

File: 1562455490811.png (1.12 MB, 1242x2208, D9A1A586-FB2E-4222-9527-4AD4DA…)

Bonus mental breakdown which I’m sure is in no way related to her picking fights on twitter for TNDs attention.

No. 833115

Remember when she made someone feel bad about asking for money to help pay for their sick dog's medical bills, and said they shouldn't have pets if they can't afford it? And now she's literally BEGGING for money for pets she shouldn't even have, because she can't afford it lol what a hypocrite.

No. 833116

Wow it's almost like begging strangers for money on the internet and sucking up to animal hoarders isn't all it's made up to be. She is a puke of a human

No. 833127

“I have money in the bank” Why is she begging for money from strangers then like what

No. 833134

Honestly it amazes me that her rat pup is still alive after losing the first one, and that her crested geckos have their tails, aren’t they notorious for dropping them over the tiniest stressor? Didn’t TND say her friend touched hers and hers just popped off? Not to WK because she’s obviously a straight up mess, but she has to be doing something right, right? Most breeders I’ve seen can’t even keep half their geckos tails before they ship them out.

No. 833141

File: 1562459497235.jpeg (165.58 KB, 749x758, 6E92AF83-D0AC-403F-A792-903D99…)

Looks like she has a second account

No. 833142

It just looks like a barely used art account.

No. 833144

It matches her art Instagram, she’s known to have multiple accounts, she has like 3 instagrams.

No. 833151

An art account where she still has stolen/traced art*

No. 833157

Money In the bank?! Then why is she begging for money every other post?!

No. 833164

What is this petty shit? Is this girl in middle school?

No. 833166

The guilt would probably go away if she could just mind her own business… and get a job, she posted about having kpins, take one before ur shift and muscle through like the rest of us. Christ.

No. 833259

The survival of the solo kitten is credit to the maternal instincts of the doe. It isn’t an example of Maria’s understanding or credibility - that she thinks this experience and access to a lab bred dumbo male is all she needs to start her own rattery is ignorant at best.

Regardless of her specific major - she’s studying the field of veterinary and should fucking do better.

She’s a great example of the Dunning–Kruger effect; the less you know the more competent you think you are.

No. 833309

File: 1562514503609.jpeg (100.78 KB, 750x477, F56D2076-1094-41D3-B153-417A0C…)

She should really practice what she preaches because she’s the one who jumped on Jessica, who didn’t even say anything to or about her specifically. She involves herself in other people’s conflicts and then gets mad when it doesn’t go the way she wants it to. Like no one needed your help there Maria. Taylor even said in that thread that she’s blocked her and it’s all good like no one asked for Marias help at all

No. 833311

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No. 833327

Can we move on from the Maria chick already? She's yawn-city. No milk, just her whining about us talking about her despite nobody really being all that interested in her. I'd rather let the thread drop down a couple pages until something real happens than feed her ego over nothing.

No. 833337

People seem to be interested as there are posts about her. If you specifically are not interested then share something else or find another thread. People are going to talk about what they wish(cringey self post)

No. 833387


skeptical about how much of the interest in her is real considering she was caught self posting screenshots in the last thread and its obvious by how much she inserts herself into drama that shes a massive attention whore. shes a literal nobody. 300 subscribers on youtube and ‘30k’ on instagram but most of her photos don’t get more than 200 likes? could be wrong but it feels extremely fishy that all of a sudden there is so much interest in this person that next to no one has ever heard of.

No. 833390

yeees this.
all this girl wants is for us to talk about her. she wants her udders so bad…

No. 833446

Then hey, if you have something else to talk about here, by all means go ahead because I don’t see anyone else volunteering anything new to talk about

No. 833452

And this is the only way that she can be discussed because she blocks people who say things publicly. She does have people that she has beef with who are upset with her and this seems to be an outlet for them

No. 833488

Omg did you guys see that drama she had with her own family? She’s a mess. Apparently she doesn’t even have a family now. Probably why she spends all day online

No. 833490

Maria, this is such an obvious self post, just stop, you look desperate.

No. 833493

File: 1562545084991.jpeg (425.72 KB, 1237x1081, B92D6BC8-B7D1-4E8A-9CF3-E7325C…)

No, I’ve been following this drama for months. This is something her cousin posted about it (and that’s just the start of it).

No. 833494

No I don’t think so, she wouldn’t be that obvious, the one time she was caught it was a slip up from a screenshot. Her family seems there for her just fine she was posting about going to the park with her mom. Just feels like someone trying to stir the pot.

No. 833499

File: 1562545693525.jpeg (120.51 KB, 750x1334, A558C9A1-8041-467C-AE63-F09673…)

I came across this thinking I could add to it because there’s so much about Maria that you guys don’t even know. You could look into it, it’s been a thing for a while now. Her cousin says she has over 50 fake accounts of Maria blocked on instagram. This is one of the screenshots that was attached to the Facebook post

No. 833507

god, this is still maria right?
can some admins find out how much she has self posted and just ban her if it's a lot?
cause if people genuinely want to talk about this bitch, I will, but I dont wanna feed her more attention if it's just her own desperate posting.

No. 833508

It’s really not Maria, I don’t know how to prove it but if there’s a way, let me know!! I’m just here to add to it, not cause more problems!

No. 833509

I’m honestly just going to keep posting whether you guys believe it’s Maria or not. I’m just trying to show how shitty of a person she really is

No. 833511

File: 1562547646968.jpeg (173.18 KB, 1241x1619, BA8D0DBD-D988-4E4A-A848-6F7FC3…)

I guess Maria kept changing her name and picture on Instagram because of the drama. She posted this homophobic trash about her cousins mom a while ago and immediately took it down after her cousin called her out publicly for it

No. 833521

File: 1562549661199.jpeg (78.19 KB, 639x645, 1B8D50A1-3345-4EA3-830D-8BEFFD…)

She clearly isn’t getting along with her sister.

No. 833523

File: 1562550190750.png (450.21 KB, 1242x2208, 02DD8F1B-6FD4-47E4-AD1E-ED2139…)

She also apparently has been harassing a high schooler that doesn’t even know who Maria is???

No. 833524

This is bollocks. What does this have to do with her animals?

No. 833527

Honestly, I didn’t realize that this thread was entirely about her animals until after I started posting but there’s so much to know about her. I came across it because of some other drama so I thought I could add. I just find it so amusing how one person can get into SO much drama that crosses so many different people

No. 833530

She’s a waste of space tbh. Like yes she’s crazy. She shouldn’t have animals. Or twitter/Facebook/Instagram. She needs real help. I don’t think the doctors she’s seeing realize how bad her illness actually is.

No. 833532

This has absolutely nothing to do with her pet care, it feels like you’re bringing up her old milk to stir the pot. We’re really only concerned about her animals and their current state of care.

No. 833534

Yes, but this just proves even more how incapable and irresponsible she is.

No. 833536

According to Twitter, she now has even more rats to beg for money for.

No. 833537

Not trying to “stir the pot”. I’m just trying to show what type of person she really is, because she’s seriously awful and you guys only know that half because she doesn’t show this part. Like I said, I didn’t realize this thread was specifically about her pets. Trying to talk/vent about a person/problem that you guys so happen to be talking about as well. I didn’t know Maria drama stretched this far so I hopped on once I saw it was a thing.

No. 833539

It’s alright. This is supposed to be about pettubers. But it’s obvious that she has other issues going on that stretch far beyond just her pets.

No. 833544

Anyone here familiar with SerpaDesigns/Tanner Serpa? I quite like his videos but I’m a dumbass when it comes to fish and reptiles so I have no clue if his builds are truly safe or good. Iirc he’s only had maybe one or two fish die in the couple years I’ve watched him.
(For context I know little enough about fish that I thought Paul Cuffaro was ok until recently… it was when he began getting birds that I realized he’s a stupid teenager who probably doesn’t research.)

No. 833551


Maria. I know you read this. Please stop. You’re hurting animals.

No. 833561

I haven’t seen any new rat photos I think she was referring to the feeders she already rescued. Hopefully. Because that tweet was from way back before the feeders.

No. 833597

File: 1562563397940.jpeg (119.27 KB, 1242x762, E9D53773-60A1-49ED-B1D3-9A02C8…)

she just posted this a few hours ago

No. 833603

reads like she's posting just to get a reaction. what a messed up little girl.

No. 833609

Tinfoil, but does anyone else find it kind of suspicious that none of these twitter screenshots have the retweet/like/share icons anymore, since that's how we know she was selfposting?

No. 833611

She's fucking insane. If I were a PetTuber I'd be blocking every "alternative" girl at this point, kek. Seems like she gets blocked enough, anyway. Every other post about her in the last thread is her. This bitch is crazy. I just looked at her Twitter and she gets like 2 favs max on tweets unless they're about TND. So trust me, no one is sending her money except herself unless they're for puss pics.

All she talks about is muh mental illness, and she must be really sheltered if that dumb shit she claims her ex did is still a focal point for pity. I have no pity for animal abusers.

No. 833612


Samefag but it's probably all still her. All the posts defending her and the "picking on her for stuff that isn't really bad" kinda posts are obviously her.

No. 833700

I've not watch a lot to do with his care but his builds are pretty awesome and he seems very knowledgeable when it comes to plants and substrates. Not seen anything bad about him anywhere

No. 833741

Good tinfoiling but I don’t think her one tweet would be unavailable to herself, the one she quoted is hers if you go on her twitter it’s obviously someone that has her blocked, because they hide replies and quotes and such, if you log out of twitter you can see the quoted tweet as well.

No. 833864

File: 1562619884151.jpeg (175.56 KB, 640x654, 4D06FF3B-1F6D-41BE-920D-D8CA4D…)

Ain’t she important? As if people watch her videos anyway….(self post)

No. 833907

shes so cringey ewww, i would hate to b her

No. 833955

Carolyn Von Petzholdt dismayed at the "haters" who are trying to prevent her from sharing her valuable freeflying knowledge in her new book. She completely ignores the people who give her great advice out of genuine concern for birds.

People are writing scathing reviews of her in the amazon page: https://www.amazon.com/HOW-TRAIN-YOUR-PARROT-MORE-ebook/dp/B07TWCCFSJ/

No. 833969

Bonus, Carolin included screenshots from a freeflight facebook group that drag her in a review of the book, and attempts to drum up support with her own fake account with the name "Carl Pin": https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmkbx7hx6qre4aq/AAAgkCbB76Rx4tWO0mZQvjvca?dl=0

Carolin has srs lolcow potential

No. 834083

At this point, I think the majority of unsaged posts in this thread are likely her. The best part is that there is no way this self-posting is driving farmers to watch her garbage content. She's just embarrassing herself.

No. 834087

Looks like mods/admins have gone through and marked her selfposts lmao

I have suspicions about more of them but at least it's confirmed she's still lurking here if she hasn't been banned.

No. 834133

Have you guys seen the channel Nick & Paul? This guy has some seriously bad all around pet care involving fish and reptiles. He just got 2 chameleons and clearly hasnt researched either.

Paul cuffaro is back at it overstocking his aquariums and stuffing turtles in appropriate ponds

Emma sampson is buying pets by the day and still hasnt shown her rabbit enclosures

Carolin is asking people to write fake reviews for her book

There is so much actual problematic pet related milk we could be discussing instead of feeding this Maria girls ego

No. 834139


Honestly hate the comments on Paul Cuffaro's videos. On his last one they're all egging him on to get a new Flowerhorn…

No. 834148


I agree, I couldn't care less about Maria. I think there's at most 2 people here (besides Maria herself) who give a shit about her.
I'd much rather talk about Emma's insane animal collecting

No. 834263

“She does have people that she has beef with who are upset with her and this seems to be an outlet for them”
I saw that and then try using this as a so called “outlet” but then I get accused of being that human piece of trash? Lmao, you guys are just as bad as her. You got a whole thread to talk shit about shitty people. Idk why I tried lmfao bye(ban evasion; bye maria)

No. 834421

File: 1562701557387.jpeg (654.53 KB, 1242x1473, 9DF99A0F-EC21-430C-A83F-4FCC74…)


No. 834465

Maybe I was mistaken, but I thought this thread was about pettubers. This Maria girl has less than 400 followers on youtube, and I could barely find her youtube or twitter just searching with the search bars. While her animal care is bad, she's not exactly influencing anyone with it. The fact that she even grabbed anyone's attention at all is astounding.

ANYWAYS, good ol' "animal educator" Emzotic got another kookaburra. She did make a big effort in the video to say she doesn't endorse them as pets, but her whole act of "we're getting this animal for education purposes" is really starting to grind my gears.

No. 834484

Oh so we have another Emzotic? Great. (This is my first time posting here hope I'm doing it right)

No. 834545

Emzotic made this girl relevant in the first place and as long as her audience is growing, no matter how slow we should be holding her accountable. She lives at home with no job because OuO mental health special snowflake, and hoards animals and you DONT want to talk about that? Is this thread to keep pettubers accountable or what? If she’s enough for bigger pettubers to notice like Emzotic and TND who both follow her on twitter and insta then it’s enough for me to hold her to her shitty pet keeping.

Also emzotic needs to release a list of her animals already this is crazy, her house has to reek from everything she has hoarded in there for “work”

No. 834566

Emma finally made a video about what happened to George. It's actually really sad

No. 834630

Don’t want to give this one a view…anyone have a Cole Notes version?

No. 834657

didn’t watch the last 5 mins but basically her chameleon had gout that was misdiagnosed as a bone infection. vets gave the wrong medication which ended up making it worse. she was driving every other day for an hour just to get him injected meds bc she wasn’t comfortable doing it on her own since he was very small. he had an open sore on his tail which they ended up just amputating 2 inches off the end of his tail without her consent, which later healed and then spontaneously reopened. she took him to the vet and had him euthanized.

sad as fuck. no idea who she is as i don’t follow this thread but it must be so frustrating to get the wrong diagnosis and wrong treatment for something that could’ve been potentially helped. poor dude sounds like he suffered a lot from their mistake

No. 834660

samefag from above but i should mention she didn’t just willy nilly have him killed off or anything like that after the amputation. she started giving the proper meds, and heavily adjusted his enclosure to accommodate his handicaps, but it was too late and some gruesome shit happened (the tail wound randomly reopening and his swollen leg skin cracked open) and was definitely in shit tons of pain. had to be the only humane option at that point.

No. 834855


That is genuinely heartbreaking. All too often vets will misdiagnose or provide the wrong treatment. A vet injected my ferret with Baytril even though it is caustic and should be used orally only, I was so pissed but the vet was reported and held accountable. Emma should do the same; report the vet because that is atrocious malpractice. Poor George.

No. 834879

I came here just for this after I saw her video which I didn't watch because honestly I just can't stand her lately.

Considering the 'rescue' was all about how he will be kept alone and whatever it's a bit… eh. Like I highly doubt she's taking birds from one educational visit to the next cause that seems like a lot of stress, even with rotations.

Was the vet a specialist in exotics? I find often that a lot of the 'general' vets are pretty shit at caring anything beyond your typical house pet. Obviously I understand that not everyone has to an exotic vet but it seems like this went on for a bit so she had some time to reach out to the nearest specialist vet.

Is she going to breed them like she bred her doves?

No. 835135

File: 1562790709380.jpg (657.07 KB, 1080x2220, Screenshot_20190710-163108_Ins…)

Mikey the Macaw posted a response in relation to Carolin von petsholdts shit book

No. 835151

cant remember if she said specifically it was an exotic vet however she did say it’s the vet she took all of her exotics to

No. 835257

Iirc, emma said on Twitter after his misdiagnosis that it was going to be difficult to find a new exotics vet because that was the closest one to her. So it sounds like it was an exotics vet.
I can't find the tweet so it might have been someone else, but I'm 95% sure it was her

No. 835297



Carolin von Petzholdt
87,256 subscribers
Published on Jul 6, 2019



Did you know that some free flyers starve their birds to gain full control over them?

This is a malicious practice and a crime against birds. It’s very common in the free flight community. Just no one talks about it.
My book is the first of its kind and it talks about the dirty little secrets that people do to have full control over birds.
It’s outrageous and shocking.
My book will change the free flight community and will help a whole new young generation to rise up and fly birds safely and stop clipping them.

If you read my book you will know that I learn free flying via skype for $300.

Now with my book you can learn free flying for only $9.99 and don’t need anyone to teach you.

You are your own birds trainer and I am giving you all the knowledge you need to know HOW TO TRAIN YOUR PARROT without starving them or abusing them!

The receipt in my book is love, trust, bond and practice, practice, practice.

No. 835374

I finally watched Carolin von Petzholdt and I know nothing about pet birds, even I could see her dumb ass was doing shit wrong but more so then that, being a first time viewer, after seeing her name here a lot.

I understand why dumbasses (like myself) can stumble across her videos and think, "Oh this nice lady" especially if you click on an live stream when she's in her house.
she seems so nice, thankfully I know she abuses her birds and is an idiot, but it's easy to come into these youtubers thinking, "oh my god, they are so nice and informed they love their animals"

I felt the same about Emzotics, then I learned everything about her bizarre self posting, how she seemed to be very insecure about being in her 30's, her cringy "look how better Em looks then Taylor".
You learn QUICKLY in these threads that so many of these people aren't what they seem.

I'm brand new here and I just read all the way up until today, it's a rollercoaster.

No. 835519

This Marlene person is really not doing much to help Carolin, is she? There's a few times I saw her stop her but beyond that she seems to be hanging out with her for the sake of views.

No. 835620


>hanging out with her for the sake of views

I think it's mutual.

No. 835765

File: 1562868193938.png (6.31 MB, 1242x2208, 45FA1F42-65E6-4850-A481-B58FE4…)

Is no one going to talk about Emzotic putting a ESA vest on her dog when it’s not an ESA? And ESA vests aren’t even an official thing?? What kind of message is she trying to spread? Just get a vest that says do not touch on it????

No. 835767

She said he’s “prescribed” but yeah the vest is a bit much it’s such a pass off for a service dog vest, that’s what people assume when they see vests on a dog. Why do people take ESAs as such a joke. She just wanted a dog she could take to conventions and show off she couldn’t even rescue a dog she BOUGHT one. There are puppies in rescues out there she could’ve rescued from if a puppy fit best. Maybe I’m nitpicking her and her dog but the whole thing feels “I’m better than you because I have a designer dog that I can bring everywhere but don’t touch it!!!!! No it’s not working it’s here for my emotions OuO!!!!!!!!”

No. 835884

You can’t bring ESAs everywhere. My dog is one, public transport and planes are really the only exceptions other than housing

No. 835900

Hey anon, your profile pic is showing.

No. 836603

File: 1562963419457.png (1.29 MB, 750x1334, 92E1355D-7750-4A89-ADD7-A3E60B…)

No. 836621


it enrages me when people get pets without enough in the kitty to cover vet costs or enough sense to get insurance

No. 836732

Marlene constantly offers subtle shade when commenting on Carolin's antics (free flying, the idea of breeding parrots, writing a book) suggesting that she not do it, or offering ambiguous feedback such as recently commenting that Carolin's training technique is unique.

No. 836741


I genuinely think Marlene is trying to stay on her good side so she can change Carolins practices from the inside out. But it's getting out of hand - the stupid twat is now accusing an entire community of people of starving their birds in order to push sales so she can make money. Accusations that are, frankly, completely false and unfounded. Can't she get into legal trouble for that? Especially considering it clearly includes Bird Tricks who are running a business. Libel? Slander? Defamation of character? Bitch is dumber than a box of crackers.

No. 836742


I find it so ironic that these PetTubers always say "don't get a pet unless you can afford vet bills!!!" yet they are always the first to start crowd funding for vet bills they can't afford cos they have 50 other animals to feed. At least Emma had some integrity and admitted to monetizing her videos in order to pay off the vet bills. Why can't other PetTubers do the same thing? Try doing your jobs for once and maybe you'd be able to afford vet bills.

No. 836758

Because their YT income barely covers the basics and they don’t want to get “real jobs” with a guaranteed paycheck…

No. 837082

File: 1562994106413.png (116.66 KB, 631x926, Capture.PNG)

Doesn't Maddie still live with Tyler? If she's got thousands put away just for vet bills, why won't she help Tyler?

No. 837168

Honestly a bought dog suited her better imo simply because she has an insane amount of animals. Risking a destructive dog would be a bit eh.

She made a video about it where she probably explains her reasoning, I just haven't been bothered to watch it

No. 837177

If you go back, Maddie also set a go fund me when she tried to breed her birds and the baby was very sick. Only she was complaining about being unable to afford a $500 vet bill. At least Tyler puts out content.

She could have just as easily adopted a puppy from a shelter and trained it. Or fostered a shelter dog to get an idea of it’s behavior. She has so many animals already that she’s definitely neglecting for the new puppy. She has ferrets, a bunny, two skunks, doves, grinchy and two kookaburras. Do you really think ALL those animals get hours outside their enclosure daily?

No. 837205

I understand that she has a ton of animals and we don't actually know how many she has. But that's the thing, she needs a dog that isn't going to have issues from the get go because it's a risk. She even explains it in her video (towards the end) that she has 3 children in her home and doesn't want any surprises, so getting a breeder that has puppies socialised from a reasonable age to young children is great.

No. 837296

That just feels like a terrible excuse because they did adopt a shelter dog too… why wasn’t that dog a problem for the kids and all their animals?

No. 837303

Paul cuffaro got rid of his puppy cause he "didnt know they were work" and didnt care to spend any time with it.

No. 837333

File: 1563040705929.jpeg (262.01 KB, 750x670, FFD34E88-E429-4549-9DDC-3040C6…)

It’s weird she donated through gofundme when they take a percent of the profits.

He’s trash.

No. 837353

She said she has thousands put away for emergency bills earlier. Now she can only afford to donate $75?
He should be borrowing money from people he knows. But because he has a following he will just use them for money so he doesn't have to pay for it at all. Real shitty to use your young fans for money Tyler, and for you to defend it Maddie when you have the money he could borrow.

No. 837412

Could be that the shelter dog has behavioral problems or they learned how much of a risk shelter dogs can be so they're going the breeder route now. Recently there's been increasing awareness around some of the shady tactics shelters use to rehome dogs and keep their euthanasia figures low so it's not like she's doing anything wrong

No. 837455

File: 1563049811063.jpeg (787.87 KB, 1242x1420, 82F493D2-3A84-407B-BF8F-8CF01B…)

How much you wanna bet this rat never sees a vet about that eye?

No. 837500

Aren't they feeder rats? They may be riddled with a bunch of stuff that she will have to continuously see the vet for with money she clearly doesn't have.

No. 837521


Imagine instantly jumping to the conclusion she's blind rather than that it could be a health issue like glaucoma or an infection… take that rat to a vet asap. Glaucoma is nothing to mess with. She could lose her eye.

No. 837790

File: 1563080804344.png (1.63 MB, 1242x2208, 3B2BE40B-86A0-4E77-8B02-D61E6C…)

No. 837897

"Somehow" maybe because the cage isn't secure? Is it an actual cage with bars, because then I think it's easy to figure this one out.

No. 837986


I would have thought breezexotics were done here after all her drama with Tnd but apparently not.

No. 838017

JFC Carolin is using drama to drum up book sales. She drags some guy this entire video.

No. 838032

What do those 2 posts have to do with breezexotics?

No. 838044

Its her icon in the Instagram screenshot

No. 838079

Good catch

No. 838167

I love when pettubers act like they’re above the drama but still lurk and post here about each other.

No. 838176

File: 1563142384741.png (2.84 MB, 1242x2208, 97784149-642A-4B39-86CD-140C83…)

Distracted from what!? He’s not a service dog therefore what work is he doing for you? Why does she have to pretend he’s some trained working animal? He’s a puppy in a vest she feels entitled to bring places.

No. 838209

Are you kidding me? Emma lurks as much as TND on hers!! I don’t trust any of that petfest crew as far as I could throw them…and with their sizes, that isn’t very far tbh!

No. 838217

The way she writes about shit is so pretentious, childish and know it all it really gets on my fucking nerves.

I bet that didn't even fucking happen. She put that vest on her dog for attention & then she thought up a story so she could preach, as she always does.

Just as Em has proven time and time again, she's disillusioned and will do anything for attention.

No. 838225

Um, this is very illegal. If he's not registered he should not have a vest on and isn't working. Not sure if vidcon allows pets but either way she should not be pretending. Especially in CA where they have the harshest laws against fake service dogs.

No. 838274

There's no service animal registry, at least in the United States. Legally they're just defined as a dog (or miniature horse) that's been trained to perform at least one task to assist a disabled person.
Any registry of service animals (or emotional support animals) is a scam.
I'm sure she's just using the dog for attention+clout but it would probably be hard to get her on any legal charges for that.

No. 838308

It's not illegal unless she's asked by a proprietor if he's a service dog and she says yes. Any dog can wear a vest. You can say any dog is working. There's a difference between illegally claiming to have a service dog and putting a visual indicator on your dog/asking people to leave your dog alone.

No. 838353

California state "Penal Code 365.7 PC – Knowing and fraudulent representation as owner or trainer of guide, signal or service dog; penalty. (“(a) Any person who knowingly and fraudulently represents himself or herself, through verbal or written notice, to be the owner or trainer of any canine licensed as, to be qualified as, or identified as, a guide, signal, or service dog, as defined in subdivisions (d),(e), and (f) of Section 365.5 and paragraph (6) of subdivision (b) of Section 54.1 of the Civil Code, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding six months, by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment. (b) As used in this section, “owner” means any person who owns a guide, signal, or service dog, or who is authorized by the owner to use the guide, signal, or service dog.”)"

No. 838403

Aren't these 'service' dogs a growing problem too? A bunch of YouTubers used the reason to basically 'smuggle' their dogs onto planes and whatever else.

No wonder she didn't adopt when she wanted some sort of service animal.

No. 838444

Right? Mutts don’t look as “professional” and “trainable” as a purebred trophy dog, and are more likely to be questioned so I’m sure this was part of her decision in buying over adopting. She’s already dragged him around on 6 flights (I believe she said) and to a couple conventions in the short time she’s had him.

No. 838447

See, I agree with her decision to shop when it came to her kids/other animals and the lack of experience which would make it harder for her to manage existing issues. The problem comes if you basically just want a toy to drag around and show off which is what this looks like. At that point you did just want a designer pet.

No. 838468

She isn’t claiming her dog is a service animal. She’s using the dog as an ESA - Emotional Support Animal. They are two completely different things. There is no registry for ESAs, you just must have a “prescription” letter from a certified mental health professional and they absolutely can wear vests when “working”. The only privileges an ESA gets is being able to fly with their owner and landlords not being able to discriminate, unlike service animals that perform specific tasks for different disabilities and can go pretty every where.

No. 838472

Either way these animals are putting actual service animals at risk. Her dog may be perfectly trained and all but that hardly means much.

No. 838525

lmao you are all fools there no such thing as "i have kids i want sth predictable". temperament is indeed genetic but it can also be largelly influenced by training (esp young ages) and we all know how emzotic likes to bomb her unvaxxed puppy to everything without using 2 of her brain cells. eurasiers usually are very friendly with their owners kids and pets so ill give her that. but guess what, every other dog that is properly socialized is. em just wanted a toy to bring around and flex and thats exactly what she is doing. "oh noo dont distract him hes working" bitch hes a baby you just slapped a vest to him to get attention like the princess you think you are

No. 838551

What're your thoughts on Chandler's Wildlife? I'm no expert on snakes and just discovered him but he seems pretty knowledgeable?

No. 838564

Unlike most of the other Youtuber he handles species that you legit have to apprentice under someone to keep and work with. He talks out about conservation of native species and pulls non natives from the wild. I find him highly educational when it comes to reptiles I feel the average person should not keep. He also tells the average viewer not to try and copy him or keep these animals.

No. 838577

File: 1563217359965.jpeg (876.85 KB, 1125x1756, 1B9F80CF-2210-4634-B6AF-162464…)

And look at Em, leaking private messages because she doesn’t like the critique

No. 838580

File: 1563217401296.jpeg (212.66 KB, 1125x846, 1615C84A-369B-4517-A26B-ACC146…)

No. 838583

It's sort of ironic she's calling others petty and essentially unprofessional for 'bashing' them when she swept her own little drama here under the rug as quickly as possible.

As for 'bashing' I think that's harsh from her. People seemed to be more aware of how her language could have an effect on uneducated people than she did and when they did try to explain it a bit more her reply seemed a bit sarcastic.

Also, to note she has no clue about ESAs and was confused if they needed 'training' something I would expect a person needing an actually support animal would know already.

No. 838585

File: 1563218339788.jpeg (688.3 KB, 1125x1340, DA650D04-9FBE-4E0F-A18B-70FCA2…)

It seems like she’s upset because they won’t forgive her for what she said on lolcow, she acts like she’s a victim in this lashing out because they bought up past drama.

No. 838586

File: 1563218395814.jpeg (946.42 KB, 1125x1777, 8B03176B-C364-4136-A4E6-77EBB5…)

No. 838587

File: 1563218506201.jpeg (934.2 KB, 1010x2188, 656BF367-13F0-488E-B467-902981…)

No. 838597

Everyone's the bad guy but Emozotic, because she said sorry that means everyone needs to move on and not remember how crazy she acted.

The reason people bring it up is because em's so judgy, whiny, always making herself the victim or the savior.What she did says a lot about her character period. She may be on another site.

She acts like she's perfect.

No. 838634

A lot of hot keepers don't like him because he free handles his venomous snakes. Even if he tells viewers not to copy him, it's setting a bad example and poses an unnecessary risk that can affect the entire hobby if an accident happens and he's killed by his snakes. Responsible hot keepers don't free handle and kiss their cobras.

Also, in one video somewhere he showed that he had a quarantine rack for a new hot (I think it was a cobra?) set up in his kitchen. Just a regular plastic rack, in the non-snake-proofed kitchen with a dog walking around. Super dangerous and possibly illegal, I'm not sure what Florida's regulations are but I know in some places that would not be permitted. The rest of his snake room is perfectly safe and up to code.

No. 838788

File: 1563247532142.png (391.94 KB, 555x692, 1.PNG)

Afroherpkeeper went quiet on his discord for a while after people finally started noticing how shit his care is. He's finally posting a little more and he's doing the typical hoarder thing and breeding.

No. 838789

File: 1563247602378.png (421.63 KB, 719x683, 2.PNG)

No. 838872

wow id never thought id say that but im on miss nipple side

No. 838874

hard question but why does em have kiba on a harness all the damn time

No. 838877


Depending on the training method you use, it is good to keep pups on harnesses/leads while going through training. It makes corrective training much easier and also helps de-sensetize them to having a lead/collar/harness on, which prevents them from associating those things with walks/vet trips etc.

No. 838904

File: 1563275159521.jpeg (692.41 KB, 1242x1234, A6AB3276-8AF5-44FF-87BD-1E8456…)

Maria chimed in. I thought it was important since she played victim so hard when all the drama came out. Wonder what made her forgive Em? Also I’m curious why they had to derail the original topic of Ems trophy dog, because I personally don’t care about her past drama at this point while I’m here watching her make service dogs look bad. She might not claim directly he’s a service dog but that’s what people think when you tell them your dog is working when it’s not, you take it everywhere like a toy, and slap a vest on it. It’s offensive to those out there that actually need service dogs, and pay for highly trained dogs.

No. 838944

Why do they keep acting like everybody has to forgive Emzotics just because she sent out some letters? Em said some really shitty things about these people, she's not entitled to their forgiveness. "Move on" my ass Maria, don't tell other people how to deal with their bullying from someone who was supposed to be a friend.

No. 838960

I was enjoying how little Maria posts there were since she got caught self posting. Maria probably forgave her because she’s also obsessed with lol cow. Em only felt bad because she got caught and was quick to use private screenshots to try to embarrass another creator in this argument. I’ve got my criticisms about many pettubers, but they’re all better off staying away from Maria and Em.

No. 839052

File: 1563302964713.jpeg (416.24 KB, 1242x1568, 2C216F68-07B6-40B9-9882-5C8704…)

Speaking of Maria, she’s gotten more money out of her followers for her medical marijuana card, and is acting really cocky about it. I will never understand how people can throw money at people who sit around and do nothing for It.

No. 839056

Maria was one of Ems targets, she has every right to forgive her as everyone else does not to. Maria’s position was different though as a fan and not a friend of hers so I can see why she would forgive Em quicker than everyone else. She’s getting attention from Em, positive attention, and I’m sure Emzotic knows this and is using it to her advantage. I’m sure she’s the only one to actually forgive her since no other pettuber has really spoken about it or her since.

No. 839080

Can we stop bringing this idiot up when it has nothing to do about animals. She wants to be talked about here. Stop giving her what she wants.

No. 839128

We aren’t supposed to bring up the person that’s the literal image of this thread?

No. 839152

File: 1563314951903.jpeg (64.24 KB, 750x223, 7909952A-9BD3-4071-B6B2-2A57FA…)

Tyler rugge: pls donate I can’t afford my rabbits vet bills!!!

also him:

No. 839365

If it's to do with her pets or pet care then yeah go ahead.

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