File: 1493596880202.jpg (577.64 KB, 990x556, tuu3rK6.jpg)
File: 1493629472921.jpg (11.49 KB, 261x156, 17264366_1408362675901639_4123…)
Armchairfag here. Studying narcissism some more to answer a few questions more appropriately, like the difference between narcs and sociopaths. Also I've corrected and expanded my posts into a single post with some extra information, to make it easier to find all the info without needing to go around threads. Right now I'm looking into why Greg won't leave this house from a narcissism perspective. Sam Vaknin, Ross Rosenberg and a few other authors among other sources were used in the research. If you want, links their channels used as reference for the posts so far can be provided.
Seems reasonable to establish as a goal using Greg as a reference tool for analysis of the Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The reason for this is that it can use his (albeit dwindling) popularity to raise awareness about narcissism as an incalculably harmful pathology and dispel the misconception that romanticizes and trivializes the disorder. Another reason is to predict and take measures to mitigate or nullify his inherently abusive supply-seeking routine. Also any milk extracted from toying with him once we all get familiar with his mechanical behavior patterns couldn't hurt. You don't have to wanna help people in order to benefit from this discussion, there's potential top kek to be had (from a distance) from knowing how narcs work.
Won't make a blog about it (or at least not any time soon) because that can be seen as supply for Abusion.
Trying to make as few posts as possible, to make catching up easier and avoid useless drama. If anyone has links for more research sources, feel free to post them. It seems reasonable to make this a thread for collectively asking questions and finding answers, what y'all think?
From what I understand, a person with antisocial personality disorder is going to be more impulsive and more callous, and naturally lack care for consequence. NPD and APD both understand there's a right and a wrong. APD doesn't care. NPD is going to follow the path that suits them best and makes them look good to other people, and if they follow the wrong path they're going to do everything they can to twist it and make it seem like they're in the right. Anecdotal example, I know someone with APD who """allegedly""" """accidentally""" killed a person because he had the opportunity to do it with no mess or fuss, and this person had recently pissed him off, so he did it. He didn't care nor was he thinking about the consequences. Now if he was a narcissist like Greg he would have been thinking, "What else does this person have to offer me? Will I go to prison? If I kill this man my family is going to be caught in a legal battle and they will stop giving me money, so I'd better not". Both lacking empathy, both full of themselves and entitled, but reacting to these situations differently.
APD and NPD are both cluster B personality disorders. There is going to be overlap. Personally I believe there are a lot of issues with the current personality disorder criteria. People with one of these disorders will exhibit behaviors typical of other personality disorders. It really needs to be revised. Psychiatry is a fairly recent thing. There's still a lot to learn and a lot of things we're wrong about. Disclaimer I'm not a psychologist, I just have an intense fascination for fucked up people and the things that make them this way.
The only thing I'd change on your assessment is that narcissists and sociopaths have different uses for harmful acts. While a narcissist will only harm someone if there's no other way to obtain equally good and safe supply, sociopaths get out of their way to harm others, provided that they can get away with it. Narcs are indifferent to harming people; sociopaths are fascinated by it. Narcs are like trains and will only harm those who walk on the railways they use to go between each supply station. Sociopaths are like homing napalm missiles: they will change their course to pursue a target and, when they hit it, they won't stop burning them until there's nothing left. Of course, both NPD and APD individuals will try to be careful about it. Also, one can be a sociopathic narcissist and vice-versa, they are co-morbidities (disorders that tend to coalesce, often sprouting from one another). By the way, not a mental health professional either, just like to study psychology on my own. Armchair psychology can be problematic
and even harmful, but a justification was provided for doing so in earlier posts. Not sure if those posts should be posted here to facilitate reference, does anyone think so
No. No treatment has ever been definitely proven to be effective in curing the core of their disorder. Some treatment has sometimes mitigated the effects, but most of the time it's useless at best. In fact, there are multiple accounts from different sources of narcissists getting worse after therapy, because they seem to be able to learn new manipulation therapists using terminology and behavior learned from therapists. Some psychologists denounce an inherent uselessness on the current generally adopted therapeutic approaches in treating narcissism. Be that as it may, having them diagnosed by a professional may not help them, but it surely can be of great service to their close ones and anyone affected by them. The problem is getting them to submit to professional psychiatric evaluation, since it must be done in person. That rarely happens; often it does when they get arrested and sent to jail where a prison psychiatrist evaluates them, but by then they already had committed a crime. Thus, we're left with little resort other than doing layperson analysis, the so-called armchair psychology, in hope that we can detect a narcissist and protect ourselves and others from their abuse by predicting their moves and cycles.
Some narcissists do come to termms with it, but that is extremely rare. Sam Vaknin is the only case I know. Self-aware narcissists are otherwise virtually unheard of. One may theorize that narcs might pretend to agree that they were abused during childhood, if they can get some sort of leniency or some form of supply by doing so. Gregory did say that he has Borderline Personality Disorder to Adrienne in one of his voicemails, but it's quite safe to bet that he didn't actually believe that. To sincerely face his true self, without any coping mechanism (i.e. not through the eyes of NPD) is to re-experience abuse and further destabilize their already dysfunctional ego. Odds are that they'd go even crazier, which could mean actually developing schizoid delusions. This seems to be what Sam Vaknin calls Delusional Narratives.
My ex is a narc and just completely crazy at this point. I spent 3 years with him in and out mental wards. For a few months now he's been threatening to kill me and my friends because I cut all contact with him after years of pain, cheating and drama. I talked about this in the vent thread.
He unironically calls himself things as the king and the prince and sends threats saying I'M THE KING AND YOU CANT DO THIS TO THE KING, IM GOING TO KILL YOU AND BREAK YOUR FUCKING NECK!!
He also has tattoos of his own "name" (more like the name he chose for himself). He also got tattoos for me after the first breakups to guilt trip me and prove that he "loved" me. He used to say he was an indigo child and that angels talked to him because of how special he was.
During our relationship he cheated on me many, many times including with a much older woman (in her 50's) because she used to give him gifts. I believe the only reason why we dated for so long is because he was using me too (for emotional support) because i was very naive and young when we met, and didn't know how to say no.
It was like a cycle, always… Idealize, devalue and then discard.
He broke up/left me more than 10 times (way more than that, but I stopped counting at some point). He'd find someone "better" or was offering something such as sex or emotional support (because I was too drained and depressed for like half of our time together), and discard me. After a few weeks he'd pop up and I'd feel forced to take him back. He'd put himself down and say a lot of shit about himself, that I was basically a saint for accepting him back. Weeks later (or even on the same day, believe it or not!) he'd realize he didn't need me anymore and disappear again.
For a long time he used the "I'm going to kill myself if you don't talk to me" technique. Since it stopped working now it's the "I'm going to kill you for disrespecting me" technique.
Life has been hell to the point I want to die. If anyone wants to ask anything go ahead. I just want to say that a relationship wit a narc isn't worth it. Even most of his family can't deal with him/has basically abandoned him. All his exes left in 3 months or less. I wanted to "save him" when we met. I was hopeful, naive and truly trusted people. Now look at me and all this mess. It's not worth it. A narc sees you as an object, not a person, and once you're not good enough he will throw you in the trash. And if you manage to leave before he's done with you, he will stalk you and try to destroy you… Don't do it.
Helpful and caring people are exactly the kind of people that narcs tend to prey upon. Greg did the same by choosing Taylor, who seems to have a similarly supportive and protective demeanor (hence her studying psychology and adopting Sarah). These seem to be their anchors, their moons. Then they seek to triangulate the relationship by bringing out third parties, usually more erratic personalities to counterbalance their anchors. Let's call these erratic types (such as Billie, and by this I mean no offense to her) asteroids. Just like a moon attracts asteroids away from the planet (which would be the narc, of course) and into themselves, the narc may use their significant others to lure in other romantic/sexual partners, hence them being asteroids. And also like asteroids, the conflicting personalities of the narc's partner and the third party clash like an asteroid hitting a moon and leaving craters. Greg always pretends that it was always Taylor's choice every time they'd bring in a third party to the relationship.
Also the (veiled) suicide threats are also present in Greg's latest "Youtube fired me" drama. Not to mention the indigo child thing, which is similar to how Greg's mom would sometimes refer to him. Finally, we have the constant dumping addressed in earlier posts.
File: 1493649314890.png (236.26 KB, 800x450, 800px-Cugly.png)
Armchair anon here. This is the reviewed and expanded version of the first few posts. First we gotta tackle an important issue about speculating over someone's mental illnesses. The website won't allow me to post the whole thing, so I'll break it down it several parts.
Of course it's wrong and even sometimes dangerous to diagnose someone without being a certified mental health professional. This is specially true when the person has mental or personality disorders that primarily affect them and only secondarily, indirectly other people – or it doesn't affect others at all. Armchair psychology is no joke. What we're dealing with here, however, is a person whose personality disorder not only directly affects other people, but is one that thrives in abuse and requires it in order to function. Still, harmful as it may be, it doesn't quite justify doing armchair psychology, but that's not all. The fact that he not only is chronically abusive, but also refuses to seek help, nullifies any possibility of psychiatric intervention. One could say it almost makes it valid to seek a non-professional diagnose, but it doesn't really. Or at least it wouldn't if he didn't still exert a strong influence in a considerable amount of teenagers (at least a few hundred). And is (or is supposed to be) parenting at least one child. Consider that diagnosing him (or getting the closest to it a layman can) as a narcissist brings some advantages. One of them is being able to predict his phases in order to warn his close ones or whoever wishes to enter his inner circle. The other one is using Onision as a form of raising awareness about Narcissistic Personality Disorder so that hopefully actual mental health professionals with Youtube channels, such as Dr. Ross Rosenberg and Dr. Craig Malkin (both of which have made a number of videos on narcissism before), hear about him and decide to make a professional analysis on him (which would reach an even greater audience, helping victims of confirmed narcs). Granted, it'd still be a remote diagnosis at best, but it would be enough to ultimately end his career, thus greatly reducing the range of his damage.I said all this because I got banned for doing armchair psychology here during the Onision Hellweek. For the aforementioned reasons, I get it. Also for aforementioned reasons, I hope people get why it's necessary. Now, let's get to the redflags:
Narcissists like to create nicknames, monikers and/or artistic names for themselves and refer to themselves on third person using them. They do that as a form of distinguishing their true self from their false self (see more on true self and false below). Example: Onision, Fact Machine, etc, etc.
Negative Attention Seeking:
While Gregory prefers positive attention for being hassle-free for a narc, negative attention also does it for him. If he manages to astonish, impress or infatuate people, he seems himself as a god. But if he manages to annoy, anger or disgust people, he sees himself as a dark god, a demon. ANY attention is good attention, if it's directed to the false self and away from his supply (more on supply below). When he makes videos shitting on other youtubers, voicing blatantly offensive opinions, generating cheap controversy or just insulting people, he still obtains empowerment from "haters". Basically anything objectionable he intentionally does is rewarded by those very objections. And when he doesn't intentionally do it, he tries to pretend that he did as part of a plan, through retconning (see more on retconning below). Example: His videos on cutting, anorexia, obesity, his videos and tweets attacking PewDiePie, IDubbbz and other bigger Youtubers, etc. etc.
Gregory uses an unusual amount of "I"s, "Me"s, "My"s, and "Mine" and the more he experiences validation, the more pronouns he uses. Example, his communication with his fans, especially on the claims that he helped them overcome issues "I'M very glad that MY videos helped .
Pathological Narcissists have no sense of personal continuity, so they create a retroactive continuity (retcon) to fix their narratives. This means that they don't see their past actions as being made by the same person as they are now. In other words, a narc is unable to feel accountable for anything he did (but he can still understand the concept of accountability, despite never experiencing it personally). That also means that they can create false past self-assessments, changing the motivations behind every past action to fit their ego's needs. In practice, they can make others (and sometimes themselves) believe that a past error was actually intentional, that a malicious act or remark was actually well-meaning and even change the boredom he felt when being with someone into memories of true excitement. He can remember what he thought, felt and experienced the way it suits his present self. Example: Often when he loses his shit on his videos or livestreams, he tries to hint that his freakouts were just an act and/or that the entire drama started by his impulsive acts were all just a ploy he carefully weaved to get more views (both of which he did two livestreams ago). Another example is when he says that some video that endangered his reputation was just comedy "because it was tagged as comedy in the description", etc.
A narcissist defines the source of stimuli that empowers his false self as supply. People, situations and interactions that feed his dysfunctional ego through the false self are all called supply. When his supply is threatened to a level where he cannot keep abusing it, the narcissist enters the hoovering phase. It's called hoovering because, just like a hoover (another name for vacuum cleaner), it's a phase whose objective is to suck his supply back in and trap them inside the filth. During that phase, a narcissist attempts to appear to have changed, appearing kind, gentle, affectionate and benevolent. This façade not only is false in every level, meant to lower the victims' defense through hope of a better future in the relationship, but eventually leads to potentially even worse abuse (because a narc charges tenfold for anything he does to cater to someone else). An interesting thing in the way that Greg did that in January, when he promised to only show positivity, to never start drama in his channel again and started dressing like a meek, effeminate, preppy child (even changing his voice and haircut accordingly for a while), is that he also attempted another typical post-critical state response: He contacted Billie about taxes. This is what I call cellphone retrieving. Just like the old excuse of "I just came back because I forgot my cellphone" that some people use to return to a place where they made themselves unwelcome, cellphone retrieving when an abuser contacts his victim again pretending to have a simple, practical and reasonable request that has nothing to do with their relationship. In the book The Gift of Fear, security specialist Gavin De Becker mentions this technique as a very commonly used one by abusers.
Narcissists and other abusive people (ranging from neurotic boyfriends to rapists) frequently perform what seems to be acts of kindness and generosity to score new victims. They do that either to remove suspicions of their harmful intent or to make their victims feel in debt with them (like a loan shark). Narcissists, psychopaths and sociopaths are unable to experience empathy or anything that would encourage them to be genuinely kind to anyone, so they always do it with ulterior motivations. Narcissists also do that to show off their wealth and generosity. You can quickly tell the difference between true generosity and narcissistic "generosity" when you disobey a narc or stop being his source of supply. That's when the narcissist brings back each and every single good thing he has done for you, referring to them as a "waste" of time, money and/or energy. Examples on Greg abound, from the way he kept throwing on Cyr's face all the equipment he bought him to the thousands of dollars that Greg "wasted" on Billie, etc.
Sociopaths, psychopaths and narcissists have a few things in common. One of them is that they are affected by a constant, inordinate ennui. Ennui is a level of boredom so unbearable that, combined with the total lack of empathy of narcissists, leads to seeking the most immoral, dangerous, abusive or simply cruel forms of excitement. A person with NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) often seeks to torment and abuse other people without any provocation just because they're bored. Narcissists are so intensely and easily bored that their attention span is almost that of a person with ADD/ADHD, with the difference that it shifts to incredible levels of focus when something or someone puts him in the highlights. This is why narcissists perform poorly at school, don't listen to anyone that's not talking about them, can barely read anything that's not directly related to them or their false self, etc. Examples: Greg can't read long texts because (his words) "they're booooriiiiing", hasn't read any book since high school and gets bored watching videos of his adversaries that aren't, directly and from start to finish, all about him. That's perhaps the reason behind him editing his own videos to convey a frantic pace. This is why individuals with NPD, during conversations, are very keen on shift-responses, where they respond to any attempt to change the subject by trying to connect the subject to him or just change back to the last topic most related to his false self.
Hiding in dark humour:
Narcissists have no sense of humour per se. Their post-traumatic constant unconscious state of anger makes them incapable of experiencing any pleasure or joy that's not directly related to fueling their disfigured ego. The only joy they feel is when something or someone puts them above others, including by putting others down through humiliation and degradation. This is why sadistic dark humour makes narcissists spontaneously laugh (every other time they laugh is faked laughter to act normal). Rape "jokes", pedophilia puns, racist "humour", suicide-related comedy and essentially any humour at the expense of someone and in detriment to their human dignity are the only form of comedy that appeals to them. This is also the way they find to attack their enemies without revealing their bitter, vindictive and grudgy true self. Their true self has stopped developing emotionally at the age of around 4 years old due to childhood trauma, constant abuse and systematic efforts to curtail his spontaneous individual development. What's left of their real selves is a fragile, mostly hollow infantile inner self, a constant prey for overwhelming feelings of insignificance. To them, true humour is supposed to turn that around and make others experience this pathetic, puny, liliputian helpless nothingness they unconsciously experience at every waking moment since their earliest memories. This is why, at the same time, narcissists develop a false self that's eternally craving desperately for validation and warped, fanatical praise, blind obedience or crippling fear. NPD individuals cannot generate any self-worth and are entirely dependent on the effects of their false self on others for that end. This very condition of slaves for validation makes them hate everyone (especially their close ones) like a drug addict hates the drug he can't quit and toils to afford. If they tell a joke that's not morbid or immoral, they're doing so to seem charming to his supply and will stop as soon as that supply is emptied.
Narcissist dread nothing more than rejection. It's the definitive sign that his ability to obtain supply is not trustworthy, which means that his ability to keep existing isn't either (since narcissist only exist to obtain supply, and supply is only obtained through abuse). In order to avoid being rejected, they reject first. The act of rejection has such power on their psyche that it's an unquestionable act. If they reject before being rejected, it doesn't matter why they rejected, only that they rejected and that automatically puts the rejected person in the wrong. This is rooted most often in parental threats of rejection during early childhood. Another reason why Gregory dumps their friends and romantic partners over and over again is to make them express the need for validation and attention that he feels every second of his life. Finally, the last reason is that this way he can seem merciful and forgiving by admitting them back into his life, thus making it seem like they did something wrong, not him. You can see evidence of that by his own remarks about breakups.
When a predator approaches the nest, some mother birds pretend to have a broken wing in order to drive the predator's attention away from their offsprings and towards themselves, since having a broken wing makes a bird an easy prey. Broken wings are basically disingenuous displays of weakness that, among others, narcissists make with ulterior motives. One of them is to make the target feel sympathy towards them. Another is to make whoever is criticizing the narcissist appear to be cruel for attacking such a vulnerable person. Broken wings are also created when a narcissist suspects that people can see how pathologically conceited they are. They're also very useful to showcase humility and tragic poetic appeal. Narcissists also use the broken wing approach to justify their abuse. They're also useful for when the narc is trying to seem like he needs to be "saved from themselves", thus making their supply pamper and indulge with their antics. Finally, the broken wing is used when they wanna seem like martyrs for "accepting'' the ''torture'' that people inflict on them by picking on their broken wing. A broken wing can be a made up diagnostic of a mental disorder, a false childhood trauma, a fake insecurity, a fear they pretend to have, etc. Curiously, if you use the broken wing tactics on a narc, he will most likely aim at your broken wing to abuse you, so it's a good way to keep them from actually damaging you. Some of the ways Gregory applies broken wing tactics is when he makes videos "mocking" on himself, when he laments for always being caught into drama, when he pretends to feel sad when some of his fans "call him up" for letting his close ones "take advantage of him" and when he tweets about his alleged depression.
File: 1493649468341.jpg (239.15 KB, 1024x576, bad skin.jpg)
Spastic, blabbering, frantic and hectic urges to entertain others with buffoonery and clownish neurotic humour. They tend to suffer from imsomnia during that phase and their heads are full of ideas, most often of megalomaniac proportions. Their performing and management skills are at their best during that phase.
Catatonic phase: The opposite, marked by almost autistic confinement, total anhedonia and lack of energy; very similar to depression. In this phase, the narcissist questions his own grandiosity (although most don't seem to ever admit that).
Acting out Phase: When a narcissist can't find proper supply, he/she seeks to destroy the "supply" (because most narcs like to think that we are all narcissists but just bad at it) of others. To do that, they start rumours, pick up fights, provoke senseless bickering and pointless debates, slenderous campaigns, etc. Some narcs with antisocial tendencies tend to actually insult people publically, accuse others of serious crimes and even might engage in felonies and misdemeanors related to the disturbance of public order an damage to private property. They don't enter this phase unless they cannot obtain positive attention from any significant source and when their manipulative plots can't be hidden anymore. This phase is often followed by either hoovering phases or masochistic withdrawals.
Masochistic Withdrawal Phase: The narcissist realizes that he cannot use his charm (or often "charm" for low-grade narcs like Greg) to obtain the indulgence or forgiveness of their supply, so they engage in a pity-party. This is when NPD individuals start to seemingly punish themselves quite dramatically, be it by insulting themselves, threatening to radically cut ties with everyone in what seems to be a forlorn exile, vehemently and mercilessly condemning his own actions and refusing any comforting word or gesture. Basically a crucifixion, a passion of christ where, obviously, the son of god and saviour messiah is the narcissist himself/herself. The goal is to make everyone feel sorry for him and/or what they think they did to him/her. MWP is a phase where narcs create a spectacle of redemption and atonement of the sins of those who harmed, forsaken or betrayed them. Or so they want us to think, since it's clearly always a form to distract us all from their own shortcomings and wrongdoings.
Gap Narrowing Phase: This is very interesting. Narcissists have what professionals call the Grandiosity Gap. It's the gap between their false self, their fake persona, and their true self, their puny and deformed inner self. Usually, this gap is gargantuan, as their puny and worthless real self and their colossal, titanic and godlike false self are extreme opposites. But when his mask drops and all the tactics in the narcissist's repertoire prove to have little to no desired effect, the narcissist has to enter a phase where this distance between their two basic selves has to be narrowed down. They do so in order to lower their "audiences" expectations, make them think they can relate to them. It can be an extension of their Masochistic Withdrawal Phase. In this phase, the narc actually seems to be self-aware and capable of perceiving his own delusions and flaws, even admitting them. This is an illusion, because the narcissist don't seem to be able to consciously experience their insignificance for more than a brief moment. Comprehending their own insignificance to them it's like trying to understand the dimensions of the universe for us, except that the other way around. They do, however, know very well that some people see them as a mere mortal, a common human in regards to proportions and potential, and they can act like they agree with that during the GNP.
When the truth isn't convenient to their interest, narcissists twist it by rephrasing facts to fit their agenda. If they don't agree with you tattooing your body, they'd get the true fact that tattoos tend to hurt and cause some bleeding to extrapolate the act into being an act of self-harm, for example. If he gets you pregnant and you wanna abort the child, he'd get the fact that an embryo will become a child and the fact that you want to interrupt the process to lead to it to say that you have no qualms in murdering a child. If you don't get orgasms from having sex with them, they'll extrapolate it into saying you're frigid or a lesbian. If a narcissist claims that he/she has been raped by someone when there's proof that, say, the person wasn't even in the vicinities when the act allegedly happened, they will call whoever points that out a rape apologist. If he/she beats his children, he will re-brand the term "beating" to educating, so that whoever opposes his beatings will be opposing a parent educating a child. If he makes out with a girl, it's a "naked full body massage"; if he publically ogles and exposes bare-naked 15 year olds for validation and views, he's "helping them overcome their body issues" (i.e. the issues that normal teenagers have with exposing their bodies to an adult man) if he exploits an anorexic girl for attention, it's "raising awareness" (afterall, he raises awareness to himself, so it's marginally correct in a purely etymological sense); if he films his ex having a breakdown, it's for "evidence" and "self-protection" (and it's indeed to put in evidence a negative perspective on her and to protect him from criticism by framing her as too unstable for a relationship).
Clearly, the goal is to make faulty sylogisms using false synonyms for the words used to describe their actions in order to make them justifiable and any opposition objectionable. What makes rebranding immoral and pernicious is the connotation of the synonyms and etymological twists he uses gives to the situations in question. It must be noted that dictionary definitions evoked by narcs to defend their point fail by not taking under consideration that dictionaries don't define what words mean, but simply register the popular definition of them; dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. In fact, Greg has even admitted to doing that right when he starts being apologetic over the Billie Drama (clearly a gap-narrowing phase, which was then followed by a hoovering phase), by saying that something along the lines of "I get facts and say them in a way that they seem more horrible".
Technically known as Abuse By Proxy, this technique consists in using other people to abuse the narc's targets. This has the advantage to keep their hands clean, perfect for the hoovering phase (which is why Greg did that to Cyr during his drama with Edwin to Jaclyn Glenn to torment Social Repose). That also allows them to keep abusing their exes when they cut contact with them, like when Greg used Shiloh to torment Adrienne. The way they do this is usually by spreading rumours to people that are in contact with their targets or by creating/exploiting enemities that they have with other people. For that effect, they can befriend their target's enemies or whoever carries resentment about them (like Edwin). They can also wash with their exes' worst enemy with pleasantries (including having sex with them) and make sure they talk about it. If someone has dirt on their target, they will ally with that person; if they can find someone overprotective, the narc will make them believe that their target has hurt them so that overprotective person will avenge the narc by attacking the target, et cetera et cetera. This is why smart narcs try to get on the good side of those surrounding their victims way before any trouble arises, just so he can use them as flying monkeys. By the way, the term comes from The Wizard of Oz, specifically from the flying monkeys sent by the Wicket Witch of the West to torment Dorothy.
Whenever some accusation is thrown at them, narcs will try to turn them around by accusing the accuser of the same thing he's being accused. If you call them a narcissist, they might try to make you believe that you are the narcissist (like Greg did in his Younow recently). If you say they're insane, they'll gaslight you into thinking that you're the crazy one (see more about gaslighting below). This is particularly easy for them since they already use themselves as the reference for everything. It also helps that narcs have a magical thinking in which all external praise is actually of internal origin (merely "summoned" spontaneously by him from others ) and all external opposition has no ground within him.
Another way to use Projective Identification is by rationalizing their abuse as a defense from the abuse from others. If they stalk someone, they make it seem like they're the ones being stalked. If they're slandering someone, they project their behavior in ther targets and rationalize their own slander as a defense from theirs. Just like every projection, it stems from the relative unconsciousness of the projecter's own projected content. In other words, because the narcissist isn't aware of certain things about themselves or has repressed it so intensely and deeply, his unconscious mind expresses his repressed content in less ego-threatening ways such as other people they don't like.
Profusely applied in their intimate partners, this technique consists in trying to convince that the narcissist's victim is either insane or at least has lapses of impaired judgement, temporary insanity as it were. The goal is to make their reality easier to bend and twist at the will of the narcissist. If Taylor is jealous of Billie, Greg would make her believe she has some deeply rooted psychological damage that causes her to be excessively jealous for no reason. If Hailey would refuse to make out with him, he'd say she's "sexually dormant", which may sound like a mental illness or mental disability. If their partners comment on their constant disappearances and vestiges of actual adultery, narcs would try to convince them that they have paranoid delusions. It might extend to others outside of his inner circle, like when Jaclyn gets breast implants and Greg tries to portray that as a sign that she has body dysmorphic disorders or, like he says "issues with her own body" or something. The term comes from a movie from the 1950's called Gaslight, where a husband tries to convince his wife that she's insane so she'd lose the right for her family inheritance and he, as her caretaker, would inherit it all. Successful gaslighting eventually makes the victim unable to trust their own wits and rely on the narcissist to make sense out of reality. This is also another way their partners get slowly reshaped into pseudo-narcissists themselves, a transformation that remains years or even decades after the victim escapes the narcissist's clutches. Maybe their entire lives. Considering that pathological narcissists seek victims that have pre-existing mental instability, the added insanity of their gaslighting is not unlikely to lead to suicidal urges or even attempts, especially as time goes by.
In Greg's case, the infamous Trinity. A narcissist brings in third parties to their relationships in many ways. The most common one is by always bring up in a conversation with their current romantic partner/friend a certain person they admire or even lust for. They do so in order to make their partner try to become more like them and also use their jealousy (coupled with the usual codependance that their longer lasting partners tend to have) to keep them on their toes. They also use the third party as an emergency escape route at the first (real or imagined) sign of incoming rejection, dumping their partner for their third party before they get dumped by them. The attempts to leave Lainey for Billie when Lainey was growing apart are clear examples of it. Other narcissists might also bring up in a conversation with a (preferrably insecure and gullible) friend some (possibly made up) extraordinary friend that does for him all the things that he doesn't. They need to always have a romantic partner because otherwise they're left to contemplate their true self and its inability to generate worth by itself, making the narcissist a paralized prey to his insatiably voracious emptiness. By always instigating jealousy between two of the parties within the triangle, the narc maintains a cut-throat competition to please him, which greatly bloats his ego. The chaos it ensues also entertains them and puts the narcissist in control of both partners (or so they believe). The competition, of course, cannot be won by either side as long as the narc is interested in keeping them both. Both competing sides are forced to sacrifice everything for it, including their relatives (Billie was told to stay away from her relatives and Taylor already does that) and their own freedom (which Billie was told to relinquish under the threat of falling out of favor with Gregory and be denied forgiveness). A narc may also "accidentally" say their third party's name while having sex with their partner or "confuse" their friend's name with their "superior friend's" name in a moment of joy, ask their partner to dress up like this or that celebrity (which can also be used as remote third parties), etc.
File: 1493649843882.png (107.15 KB, 340x191, 1469393053760.png)
Since someone asked why Greg barely goes out of his house, here's a theory.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45bY2tEM1I4
File: 1493651730226.jpg (11.75 KB, 360x235, Charles_Manson_cult.jpg)
Attending requests, this should clarify the difference between sociopaths and narcissists.
Narcissistic Personality Disorder:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy as indicated by 5 or more of the following:
Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (exaggerates achievements, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited power, success, brilliance, beauty or ideal love
Believes her or she is “special” and can only be understood by similarly special, high status people
Requires excessive admiration
Has a sense of entitlement
Is interpersonally exploitative
Is envious of others or believes others are envious of him/her
Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Antisocial Personality Disorder
A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15, as evidenced by 3 or more of the following:
Failure to conform to social norms as evidenced by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
Reckless disregard for the safety of others
Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial commitments
Lack of remorse, as being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt others
The individual is at least 18 years of age
In addition to the above:
There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15
The occurrence of the above is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder
Possibly, but I personally think it's more the oldest son
He looks like he enjoys the torment
Not sociopaths, but disgusting white trash with money for sure.
I had poor friends as a teen and their families could definitely act like that. The parents themselves were probably raised like that, and are just stupid white trash and unable to break the cycle. The oldest brother acts like that either because he has the same personality as the dad or learned to act like that to get approval from the dad.
Great to see the cycle of white trash continue.
>>188990>Do you guys think the daddyofive parents are sociopaths?
Real talk: They were probably raised that way too and never learned that what their parents did to them wasn't normal. Now that they're the 'bosses' of their own kids, they figure it's their turn to get shitty because they think that's how parenting works.
I can smell the welfare on them.
You can tell that's the first real, suburbia type house they've ever lived in. Complete with cheap furnishings. Messy, loud, vulgar. They dress and act like basic poor white trash. Especially the dad with his cheap Batman Wal Mart tees.>>189001
The brother probably goes along with the abuse because it's his way of protecting himself so the parents won't scream at him. That's in addition to just being acclimated to taking orders from the parents to bully the children. He doesn't have an 'off' switch, and that's a scary thought…
No. I think they love their kids (maybe evil stepmom doesn't love the step kids). They're just stupid, and probably don't know what a healthy home looks like. This is just going off my own experiences with abuse and being white trash where all your friends' families are the same, it was a real shock when I started babysitting as a tween and learned that families can be very diplomatic and siblings don't have to constantly fight. I figure these people never had an opportunity like that. That being said they're clearly
abusing their children, especially Emma and Cody. They're also exploiting them for profit, which I could excuse if it was already a healthy home. It's just another layer of abuse on this shit cake. This is a matter of inbreeding, not sociopathy.
I am >>188959
and wanted to ask if armchairanon and others have any idea on what to do in my situation.
If a narc is going after you, and harassing and threatening you, what can you do to protect yourself (besides going to the authorities)?
I've blocked his emails and number yet he keeps finding me.
Do they stop on their own? Will I always be harassed or he will find another victim and move on? If so, is there a period of time we usually have to wait?
I don't respond back, I haven't for months, and I hope I'm doing the right thing by not saying a word. I feel like this is what he's trying to get from me, a response, but I won't ever say anything back.
I'm not armchair anon but another anon posted this video in onision's thread, her other videos are really informative too. This one is specifically about your ex contacting you. That's largely what she says in this one, block it out and don't respond. That is what he wants.
You should start documenting every time he contacts you or comes near you so you have a case for stalking. Screenshot every message, record every voicemail. It will be so much easier if/when you take legal action. There's a possibility it won't stop.
thank you for the responses and video, anons. I save and screenshot everything (everything he sends goes to spam), but we're living in different countries, which makes taking legal action way more complicated.
I contacted the Canadian police (his country) and they said I need to report him here, and that they can't do much if my country doesn't take the first step and do something here. But in my country no one gives a fuck about internet crimes unless you're rich or famous. So I'm fucked. On the other hand, the fact that I am living in another country is probably the only reason why he hasn't tried to kill me. I want to be free from him, and he should be in jail for what he's done to me the last 5-6 months.
File: 1493678005068.png (34.82 KB, 1118x322, 00001.png)
Thank you for the advice. I won't ever respond again, but it's been very, very hard since he contacts a couple of my friends as well. It makes me feel extremely guilty.
He can't come to my country and even if he did, he doesn't know my address, so he wouldn't be able to find me, I hope. He's threatened to hire someone to kill me, but like I said, he doesn't have money. It's just one of his lies. The only thing he can do to harm me has already been done; he said he posted my nudes online. The thing is that I've never sent him nudes with my face in them, so tbh that doesn't really matter at this point. It's more the emotional and mental stress.
These are the emails he's sent to me today. He sends them from multiple accounts, and always attaches a voice message saying the most horrible things (I haven't listened to them in a month or so but the subject is obvious with what they talk about).
Then I forward them to a different account to make sure I will have evidence if necessary (I've planned to deactivate this account once I'm finished with college, which will be soon, so that he won't have a way to reach me because I'm not on social media). it's been hell.
The thing I'm having a hard time understanding is why Greg decided to throw Billie out. He seemed to be determined to destroy Lainey's character, but then suddenly everything with Billie fell apart after they had sex.
Was it just he was sensing she would not let him control her as much as Lainey and that's why she fell out of favor?
>Was it just he was sensing she would not let him control her as much as Lainey and that's why she fell out of favor?
Yep. That's where my money's at.>>189185
Also Gregory keeps dumping so he could get supply over their rejection-induced distress. When a narc takes away the victim's financial independence, replaces it with his support and moves the victim into your physical domain (McMansion), it intensifies the effect of abandonment. Susceptibility increases accordingly, leading the victim more prone to bow to their will. If Adrienne had moved in with Greg, she would have had suffered in his hands for much longer and way worse, especially because she seems smarter than any other one of his victims, and that would lead to Greg losing control more often (and having to double down on the abuse and manipulation to regain it).
making the victim more prone*
As someone who has had experience with two people diagnosed with ASPD, I'd like to challenge a few things you've said.
Of course, "personal experience isn't everything, blahblah", but I still want to talk about the discrepancies and see if maybe I'm the one who's mistaken. I'd also like to note that these two individuals experienced various forms of child abuse, since I'm not sure if that is connected with ASPD, given their neurological make up. But I'll go over that in a bit.
The first person diagnosed with ASPD was a female relative of mine. Very beautiful and very charming, which was a terrible combination. She was extremely callous and lacked empathy, but she was not what I would call impulsive, not in the traditional sense. Wherever she went, social ruin would typically follow, but when she lived with my family for a few years, she never did any thing recklessly. The two times she did anything along the lines of criminally, she did it as a condition of obtaining something she needed or when she felt her authority was being threatened (and yes, she did feel she had authority over adults in the household).
I wouldn't say that she would "go out of her way to hard others", and I think that's honestly a pop cultural myth that people with ASPD are pure evil and have a need to destroy. She never worried, she did things easily and with little consequence, but she the reason she was able to navigate society so well is because she didn't do crazy things whenever the opportunity arose.
The second person is my boyfriend, who only got diagnosed at my behest and a year of psychiatric evaluations, which he eventually abandoned. I'm also going to add that I'm sure there are things I don't know about him, and things he doesn't show me, given his nature. So these are only observations. Also charming, but not in the alluring way, and more socially manipulative. He had an issue with conduct disorder as a child up through high school. His behavior is similar to my female relative, but his deceitful actions are a lot more subtle than hers were; he puts much more effort into his "mask" and actively feigns empathy when he's in a situation he thinks calls for it. Although he doesn't have a criminal record, he has a history of criminal acts that he seems to do for no particular reason (besides the rush, which I'll go into because it's interesting and I want to ask if anyone else knows where I'm coming from). Although you say that they "don't care", many of them have a personal code of conduct they adhere to in order to maintain their lifestyle. He is also the exact opposite of impulsive. He is obsessive in planning things and navigating through social spaces. He doesn't do anything he doesn't think through, and actually thinks impulsiveness is a pathetic personality trait, which goes against most criteria.
He is not fascinated with hurting others for no reason, though he does have a strong interest in sexual sadism, so that might count. Well, now that I think about it, it's not others. He has specific types. He does like breaking people down, especially if they're authoritative figures. And, like another anon said, he does like nurturing types of people, but I didn't realize that was a cluster B thing, just mommy issues.
The only reason he agreed to therapy was because I was noticing his cluster B traits and my family's history with medical and social work made it a relatively simple process. I'm not sure why it took over a year for a diagnosis, though. My cousin was diagnosed at a young age as a result from her abuse, so I don't know how it works for adults. I'm guessing their deceitful nature makes it harder to work with them?
BUT in relation to the "hurting others" stuff! I'm really interested in that, because I notice that with my cousin and boyfriend, they both had very particular vices that they relied on to get a "rush" of feeling. The easiest way to understand it, for me, was thinking about the way that BED works. The binging is motivated by the need for a dopamine release in a person with chronically low dopamine levels. So does the sociopathetic urge to hurt others come from the same issue? Maybe not hurting, since my boyfriend also does things like stalking a place and waiting for the best time to b&e for seemingly no reason. Is it a compulsion, then? Couldn't that be treated with medication?
SORRY if this is considered a blog post. I just wanted to compare my encounters with what you already know since it seems like you're quite knowledgeable.
I think you are a bit mistaken as far as what ASPD is usually like, though obviously everyone is different.
The vast, vast majority of people with ASPD are petty criminals or people with huge substance abuse disorders. It's the sort of charming that is great at a distance or in passing, but if you're around for more than like half an hour, you start to feel kind of uncomfortable with, hence the superficial aspect of it.
Impulsivity and poor ability to make good decisions is a major aspect of the disorder, which is most of where I think your experience differs to the norm of ASPD. They really aren't cold or calculating people, they tend ot make quick decisions with very little thought put into it or the potential consequences.
If anyone is legitimately curious to get an image of what ASPD is like, read pages 691-695 of this link, which I'll quote some highlights fromhttps://psicovalero.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/dsm-v-manual-diagnc3b3stico-y-estadc3adstico-de-los-trastornos-mentales.pdf
>For this diagnosis to be given, the individual must be at least age 18 years (Criterion B) and must have had a history of some symptoms of conduct disorder before age 15 years (Criterion C). Conduct disorder involves a repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated. The specific behaviors characteristic of conduct disorder fall into one of four categories: aggression to people and animals, destruction of property, deceitfulness or theft, or
serious violation of rules>Persons with this disorder disregard the wishes, rights, or feelings of others. They are frequently deceitful and manipulative in order to gain personal profit or pleasure (e.g., to obtain money, sex, or power) (Criterion A2). They may repeatedly lie, use an alias, con others, or malinger. A pattern of impulsivity may be manifested by a failure to plan ahead (Criterion A3). Decisions are made on the spur of the moment, without forethought and without consideration for the consequences to self or others; this may lead to sudden changes of jobs, residences, or relationships. Individuals with antisocial personality disorder tend to be irritable and aggressive and may repeatedly get into physical fights or commit acts of physical assault (including spouse beating or child beating) (Criterion A4)>Individuals with antisocial personality disorder also tend to be consistently and extremely irresponsible (Criterion A6). Irresponsible work behavior may be indicated by significant periods of unemployment despite available job opportunities, or by abandonment of several jobs without a realistic plan for getting another job. >Individuals with antisocial personality disorder may also experience dysphoria, including complaints of tension, inability to tolerate boredom, and depressed mood. They may have associated anxiety disorders, depressive disorders, substance use disorders, somatic symptom disorder, gambling disorder, and other disorders of impulse control. Individuals with antisocial personality disorder also often have personality features that meet criteria for other personality disorders, particularly borderline, histrionic, and nar
cissistic personality disorders>Child abuse or neglect, unstable or erratic parenting, or inconsistent parental discipline
may increase the likelihood that conduct disorder will evolve into antisocial personality
I think this part is most relevant though>Individuals with antisocial personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder share a tendency to be tough-minded, glib, superficial, exploitative, and lack empathy. However, narcissistic personality disorder does not include characteristics of impulsivity,
aggression, and deceit. In addition, individuals with antisocial personality disorder may not be as needy of the admiration and envy of others, and persons with narcissistic personality disorder usually lack the history of conduct disorder in childhood or criminal behavior in adulthood. Individuals with antisocial personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder share a tendency to be impulsive, superficial, excitement seeking, reckless, seductive, and manipulative, but persons with histrionic personality disorder tend to be more exaggerated in their emotions and do not characteristically engage in antisocial behaviors
There's definitely similarities, but they're distinct disorders.
I don't know where they "They want to hurt people" thing comes from though, I don't think there's much evidence to suggest that most people with the disorder feel that way.
File: 1493866863436.jpg (42.06 KB, 490x684, Debra_Danielsen_modeling.jpg)
My Mother In Law is a narcassist. She's a shit wife and even worse Mom. Deb from Teen Mom is a great example of a narcissist.
Very Simply, A Narcissist's personality is thought to be a form of self-defense in the Ego, hence why when you ever questions them or bring up things that conflict with their version of themselves and what they want, they freak out and get defensive. They gaslight light, project onto you, nothing comes without an emotional price, and drama is a main form of self-expression/communication. It can be difficult to deipher if they knowingly act this way or are oblivious to how others perceive it.
File: 1493867154798.png (35.56 KB, 271x411, t7tdE7R.png)
Pic Related is a text a Narc Mom sent her daughter, who recently had a baby, after trying to overstep her daughter's boundaries. Not all Narcs are phsyically abusive, but they are all emotionally abusive. This mom, like my mom, always just claims she is just "super sensitive" as a defense to her behaviour. Sociopaths don't typically have an Enabler the way a Narc does. Narc Enablers, usually husbands or wives, tend to let Narcs consistantly get away with their behavior, so by the time the have children, the Narc really believes she's always doing her best and no one can tell her otherwise.
A Narc is almost always rooted in Self-martyrdom and victimhood.
More than likely. Those are the only two people I've personally interacted with who have formal diagnoses, and probably the only ones I've ever met. I've also known them for several years at this point, so I'm sure there's a some bias in my perception of them.
>For this diagnosis to be given, the individual must be at least age 18 years (Criterion B) and must have had a history of some symptoms of conduct disorder before age 15 years (Criterion C).
Although my bf wasn't diagnosed until the age of 21, my cousin was definitely referred to as having a personality disorder before the age of 18. Her abuse and being a part of social services might have had something to do with that, but I definitely remember the compulsory therapy appointments.
>Persons with this disorder disregard the wishes, rights, or feelings of others.
That is a trait both of them share, but my cousin was far, far worse than my bf is (at least to my, personally).
>Individuals with antisocial personality disorder also tend to be consistently and extremely irresponsible (Criterion A6).
My cousin would be considered irresponsible, by that criteria, but she never seemed to be disadvantaged by her bad decisions and managed to find ways to make it work, so I guess I never saw it that way.
>Individuals with antisocial personality disorder may also experience dysphoria, including complaints of tension, inability to tolerate boredom, and depressed mood.
The boredom is a big thing with both of them, too. But that's what I was getting at when I mentioned they would do things for the rush it gave them.
And I know both of them experienced abuse, but my cousin's abuse was more severe.
I don't think I've ever interacted with a narc before, thank goodness. And yeah, I was wondering if the hurt thing was legit, but I guess it's a pop culture thing. >>189234
So your mother and aunt are both narcs? How does that type of family interact? I couldn't imagine dealing with constant guilt tripping like that.
File: 1493868421856.jpg (7.32 KB, 300x168, url.jpg)
>>189235>So your mother and aunt are both narcs? How does that type of family interact? I couldn't imagine dealing with constant guilt tripping like that.
Oh, no that's not from my family, that was shared on the RaisedByNarcasssists Subreddit. My Mom's life is guilt tripping. Only my dad tolerates it, everyone else takes shots at her, or makes fun of her behind her back and she absolutely deserves it. She'll say extremely callous remarks to your face and feel no remorse. Should she be in a "happy" mood, she'll say sorry if you confront her, but she'll explain that she didn't mean it like that, or she was joking. Another signature move Narcs pull is they act like nothing gets done without their presence or supervision and will butt-in to other people's conversations or happenings to feel.
If you meet someone who feels very alone in their own family, despite the family seeming pretty normal to you, chances are someone in there is Narc. By it's design, it's hard for strangers to detect this. You have to engage with the person to start to see it. Most people don't care because they can brush off these limited-interactions. Families are trapped and guilt-tripped i into staying that way.
>>189235>my cousin was definitely referred to as having a personality disorder before the age of 18
By doctors? Sometimes they'll throw around potential diagnosis, but they can't diagnose her with it before 18, that's just how it is really.
>That is a trait both of them share, but my cousin was far, far worse than my bf is
Makes sense, not all personality disorders are equally severe.
>And yeah, I was wondering if the hurt thing was legit, but I guess it's a pop culture thing.
Yeah, I think it comes from that hollywood image of psychopaths more than anything, sadism is something completely different, though I think there is some comorbidity.
I guess it comes down to what you see, too. Also, if you're legitimately in a relationship with someone with ASPD, can I ask why? That seems like a terrible decision to make, to me at least.
Ah, good. That sounds pretty bad in itself, though. Before Onion drama, I wasn't aware of just how bad a narcissistic relationship could get. Does your mom try to gaslight you guys?>>189237
Yeah, because they would have to coordinate with her teachers because of her issues and make sure she didn't cause trouble or skip her classes.
Good point. I wonder how much is nature v. nurture, but the variation is probably pretty strong.
I've found that I learn more genuine things about them if I don't act like I care. If I try to get in their heads, they immediately shut that down, so I might not even have an accurate picture.
I was in a relationship with him before I realized he was. Just thought he was a cute guy. Then a series of events unfolded where he started coming off as strange to me (best friend dies and he acts like nothing happened, spending more time with him revealed that he had habits that reminded me of my cousin, and he gave my mom very uncomfortable vibes when he came around our family). After a while, he stopped putting up a social front around me and talked about it more and I said he should talk with someone about it. I think he only did it for as long as he did because he knew I was starting to feel uncomfortable with his habits and so he put up with it for a while. It took a really long time to even get a diagnosis and after a while he got to the point of not going. I was hoping he would get something out of it, but he ended up getting bored with it. He seems a little bit better now, though! He's not as manipulative, it seems.
He's definitely got traits and habits that I find concerning, but at this point I'm too emotionally invested. I don't think I can "fix" him, since he doesn't see anything wrong with having very low empathy, but I feel like since I have experience with his situation, that I have a responsibility to help.
>>188900>Do you think that narcissists are also, for the most part, samefags
This is an old post to reply to but I wanted to remind everyone of that 'ask a narc/bpd' thread we had last year, where it was theorised anons were posting questions to them answer themselves
Be wary of the same behavior on this thread
>>189243>Yeah, because they would have to coordinate with her teachers because of her issues and make sure she didn't cause trouble or skip her classes.
That's pretty strange then, because ASPD in people under 18 is pretty much just conduct disorder.
>He's definitely got traits and habits that I find concerning, but at this point I'm too emotionally invested. I don't think I can "fix" him, since he doesn't see anything wrong with having very low empathy, but I feel like since I have experience with his situation, that I have a responsibility to help.
That's definitely understandable, I was in a pretty similar situation a while back.
Just keep in mind that someone who has ASPD will nearly definitely fuck you over eventually, if he hasn't already.
If he won't do therapy, you can't help him really.
All the best luck to you guys though, I hope you're the exception.>>189244
Could just be normal attention seeking though, not necessarily narcissistic people.
It's not like pretending to have mental illnesses is an unusual thing online.
It's not an actual diagnosis anymore but it is a thing many psychiatrists do believe is a subset of ASPD regardless.
You can't diagnose someone with socio/psychopathy but many psychiatrists who specialize in that sort of thing do make the distinction between that and ASPD anyway… it's far from an exact science.
It's a traditional concept and old diagnostic term that a few researchers believe differs enough from ASPD to be its own diagnosis as far as I know, but there's really not enough evidence for that being the case, hence why it's not in any modern diagnostic manuals.
I don't think that anyone using psychopathy in this thread is using it in that context, more as a result of generally not understanding the topic.
Hm. I'm probably remembering something wrong, then, or maybe it was so implied that I thought she was diagnosed earlier than she was.
I keep telling myself that I'm too smart to let that happen and that if he does anything really bad that I'll drop him, but we've been together for a few years at this point. That's always in the back of my mind, especially if he does something I think is really fucked up, but I have to act like I don't mind so that he remains open about himself. I guess I secretly hope that "it won't happen to me!" with all the effort I'm putting into it. Writing it all out now, my reasoning sounds a lot more stupid than it does in my head.
Armchair anon here.>>189227>>189231
I entirely admit that you two might be right about ASPD. Like I said before, I don't know about the disorder nearly as much as I know about NPD, which was always my focus here. Since that's the thread title, I think that's the main theme for it so I'll stick to that on my posts from now on.
By the way, anyone seen the last video Greg posted, taking a buzzfeed-style narcissism test? Taylor was there and the whole thing was quite intriguing.
Yeah, that's definitely possible, and as you near 18 in really obvious cases doctors start to throw around the words a bit, they just can't actually say "yes, you have this" until you're 18.
I find that's the case a lot with excuses myself though, that they seem strong when you can just think of it vaguely in your head, but sort of putting it all out there in a solid way makes you look at it different.
Not trying to be discouraging to you of course, just keep in mind that there's a good chance you aren't the exception to the rule and the person he really cares about an wouldn't hurt. You could be, but it's pretty damn unlikely, especially if he doesn't want to seek help.>>189263
I think it's important to say they're aware, but not necessarily very accurate with how they think people see them.
File: 1493902446046.png (6.71 KB, 205x246, download.png)
>>189243>He's not as manipulative, it seems.
He just got better at it. Manipulating less means less control, which means more instability, which would mean he'd have more anger outbursts. If that's not what you're experiencing with him at this point, he hasn't got any less manipulative.
>that I have a responsibility to help.
You can be sure that he'll use your illusion of responsibility to manipulate you. I'd be surprised if he isn't already doing that.
> He seems a little bit better now
Sounds like hoovering to me. How long has he been seeming better? Hoovering always leads to more abuse, sooner or later. Even during that phase, narcs are often up to something, especially cheating. I highly doubt that he hasn't done that to you by now and I'm convinced that he will, given the opportunity to do it risk-free.
I'll tell you what every single specialist tells anyone that's in a relationship with a narc: Get away from him before it's too late.
Surely this isn't what you'd like to hear, but hey, just trying to help here. I might be just an anon doing some crude armchair psychology, but it really doesn't make sense according to anything I've read from any specialist. Either he didn't get better or he isn't actually a pathological narcissist.
Anon did say he had ASPD, not NPD, but your advice is pretty good either way.
People with ASPD can recover somewhat though, if they choose to stick with therapy it's a bit better understood how to help them, which I assume is because so fucking many are in prison and we want them to stop being there.
I don't think she said he'd recovered though, he stopped therapy and everything.
Yeah, I don't mean that they're actually incapable of understanding what's going on in the way an autistic person might, I mean more that the way they interpret that information is inaccurate.
A passing comment might be interpreted as a serious insult to someone with NPD for example.
It's not an immediate misunderstanding of what's being said, it's in the later rationalisation and interpretation of it that we all deal with where they get the warped ideas, from my understanding.
Of course, not everyone with NPD is equal and I don't think that either of us could really adequately sum it up in a reasonable amount of posts here.
I know that she did this to herself, but I still pity her. She looks so uncomfortable, but you can just tell from the video that she's constantly checking herself to make sure she doesn't say anything or act any way that would make Greggles upset. He's probably constantly in a narc rage since the youtube thing, too.>>189266>Not trying to be discouraging to you of course, just keep in mind that there's a good chance you aren't the exception to the rule and the person he really cares about an wouldn't hurt. You could be, but it's pretty damn unlikely, especially if he doesn't want to seek help.
No, I appreciate it! It helps to hear an outside opinion. I'm the only person in his life who knows all these things and that no one else keeps him accountable for his morally deplorable behavior. It's also selfish, too. I said I don't want to fix him, but I hope that I'm somehow having a good influence.>>189267>>189269
Thank you for your advice. Had to google what hoovering is. He actually is more likely to drop people very easily. He gets bored with people very quickly.
I do think he uses my desire to help him to his advantage, but since I had to end up discovering all of this myself (he never gave me a sob story for pity points), I'm hoping that's less likely. He doesn't try to play bullshit mind games with me because I'm hyperaware of those types of things at this point but he's more of a "long run" type of person, so you're probably right. Idk, he's been abused as a child, he couldn't control that. He can't help how it made him develop. If I treat him like he's a lost cause, wouldn't that make him worse?
He's definitely done really shitty impulsive things just because, but he's seems better than he was three or four years ago. Unless I'm just less aware or he's better at hiding it.
File: 1494003793532.png (31.48 KB, 693x444, cov.png)
Definitely, they're never sorry for what they do. Research has pointed out that the more a person is angered, the lower their empathy gets. Since narcissists are in a constant state of wrath, they are constantly virtually empathy-deprived. Vaknin says that some narcissists might sometimes feel sorry for the ignorance that keeps the lesser beings from understanding the extent of the narcissist's grandiosity, but that seems to be the closest they get from remorse. They surely regret making mistakes that jeopardize their status and others might interpret it as guilt when those mistakes involve harming others.
Curiously, they also don't feel any gratitude or vicariously experience anyone's joy. Seems like any emotion that requires an emotional bond is virtually absent. This is why they're disgusted by empathetic, conscientious and caring people. What's even more curious is that covert narcissists are very fond of faking these emotions to be seen as a greater being. This kind of narcissist particularly loathes those who don't recognize their gestures of "generosity" and finds everyone who accepts their help as weak and selfish while pretending to like those he helps.
That's something I forgot to cover. Does anyone already know about the types of narcissist (Overt, Covert, Cerebral and Somatic)? In case anyone's interested, I can post about it. In my opinion, it's quite clear which type Greg is.
File: 1494160342606.jpg (71.47 KB, 600x600, 3d22eaeed19947a1e9c0218f8667a2…)
Some narcs are aware that acting self-entitled, arrogantly and with other displays of narcissism can be very problematic
in obtaining supply. Those are the covert narcissist, or autruistic narcissists. They not only don't act like a classic narc, but even seem to be the opposite of one. Covert Narcs can be seen in charity events, church organizations, support groups and other samaritain contexts where they often seen to be, by far, the most caring, giving and supportive. That's obviously a façade, their false self. In reality, not only do they don't feel any interest in being truly selfless, but also consider that an inordinately taxing, draining and even unrewarding activity. This is why they secretly see those who accept charity as parasitic beings that drain the life of greater beings- beings such as the covert narcs.
Behind a façade of unrequited generosity, tabs are kept. What seems to be acts of effortless and unwavering kindness actually generate recipes, logs and endless book-keeping to this kind of NPD individual. All it takes is entering their private life, sharing an intimate space with them and all that has been given will be revealed as loans, with soaring interests. As they shut the door inside their houses, the mask drops. No more smiles, no more helping hands, no more benevolence. The pillar they are to the community collapses right on the narcissist's children, spouses and close relatives as soon as no one else is watching. They are known to binge-dring, throw insults at any perceived sign of non-compliance, humiliate and sometimes even physically assault those who live on the backstage of their martyr spectacle.
Covert Narcissists are particularly fond of guilt-tripping, to the point of being the most common exchange currency in their economy. It takes as little as accepting their constantly offered help to become eligible to their guilt-inducing manipulation. The help their offer is often done so in public or made public, so that others may provide the narc supply in the form of admiration. They try their best to appear in disadvantage for giving what seems to be so much away for others, so that the world would see them as religious icons of selflessness and, as such, adore them. The price of every inch they move for others is proportionally charged in private, so the kinder they were to you during that public, the more abusive they will be towards you when you two arrive home.
It doesn't take asking them anything. The whole point for them is to offer their loan-sharking services before you even ask, so that it will seem even kinder and selfless. Ideally, they won't even wait until you show any clear sign of need before they wash you with favours, gifts and attention for a brief moment. Again, that's especially the case when others are looking. It's not only impossible to convince them that you decline their offer, but the more you do so, the more they will insist. This is because altruistic narcissists don't believe that people around them don't need their help. One can go as far as to say that they don't ever believe that people around them aren't expecting their help. And remember, being helped puts anyone in an inferior state to the narc's, so in reality they see others that way because they're all inferior to their narcissistic "saintly" nature. This pathological narcissist will go as far as to to rationalize that you are to blame for not refusing their help – even when you obviously and often repeatedly did.
Their demeanor is, thus, the opposite of the classic narcissist's demeanor. Don't look for the typical smug, haughty, self-righteous, arrogant and pompous attitude on them. What you should look for is excessive humility, inordinate kindness, disingenuous meekness and unnatural displays of care when you just meet one of them or see them in public (especially work) settings. They will also constantly humble brag as if that's the only thing they have to say. If you expose them publically, they will act like victims and bank on the attention and admiration that a martyr gets when publically "tortured" by your criticism. They will most likely make your attempt to expose their pathological abuse into a passion of christ, where obviously they are Jesus of Nazareth and you and whoever joins you are the romans submitting them to holy suffering of the crucifixion. If you do the same in private, you may get a similar reaction to that of the classic narcissist, with a chance of also being called a parasite, a leech, a cancer or anything that morbidly feeds on them.
Overt narcissists are just the typical narcissist that I've elaborated upon on posts above. Onision is an overt narcissist, so you can get a good idea on what that is by looking at him (although he's not a remarkably clever one).
Those are also the most well known to pop culture. Appearance-based, body-obsessed narcissists. Pic related, you can read some of their key characteristics on it. Somatic narcissists, ironically, are deeply insecure about some aspect or part of their bodies and will attempt to overcompensate with the rest of their appearance in every single way. They will rationalize everything they do or don't do with the excuse of physical fitness and cultivation. For example, Greg (which has somatic narcissistic tendencies) has once said that he doesn't read a lot by implying that he'd harm his eyes. He's also a vegetarian publicly for meat-eater shaming, holier-than-thou benefits – but personally for fitness reasons, which would be a somatic NPD component. The body-shaming videos are another example of his somatic-based narcissism. Finally, the most blaring example is his infamous "This is my vegetarian body" video.
The somatic narc's hypersexuality, ironically, is anything but sexual. This display of bodily prowess is meant to attract the superficial, lust-dieted victims to his inner circle for abuse. In reality, the severe childhood trauma and the ensuing constant, repressed fury makes them develop certain levels of anedonia. They don't feel nearly as much sexual (if any) pleasure from sex itself, relying mostly (or entirely) on narcissistic sexual fantasies to enjoy the act. A good fictional (albeit caricatural) example of it is Christian Bale's character in American Psycho, in the sex scene where he flexes to the mirror, makes poses to it and congratulates himself to it while having sex. Onision's videos judging early teenagers' bodies is another sign of this NPD subty´pe. Finally, his constant appeals to appearance when insulting his enemies, calling them ugly or insulting some of their physical traits.
Sam Vaknin is the best example of a cerebral narcissist. Their intellect and/or mental prowess (or more precisely the impression they give of it) is the source of their narcissism. Instead of actually cultivating intellectual, mental or cognitive for the sake of personal growth, curiosity and admiration for the human endeavor that lead to these discoveries and achievements, cerebral narcs do so to show off. They don't simply share knowledge, they merely mimic the behavior and language of those perceived to be classic intellectuals. This means cramming up as many fancy words in one sentence as remotely possible; make obviously obscure and arcane references; talk in an almost (or downright) theatrically pompous manner, use outdated grammatical forms or forms that belong exclusively in classic literature; go on lengthy, unwarranted expositions about the most mundane topics in the most mundane conversations and make the most unnecessary corrections of speech or linguistic errors that aren't even real errors. Without being asked to, they will tell you what diplomas they have (if any), what books they've read, the books they wrote (if any), what courses they took, where they studied (if it's a prestigious place; otherwise they'll lie about it or exaggerate); how many languages they know fluently (or lie that they're fluent); how many words they know (even if it's a bullshit number and they can't really count them), what research they did (if any) and lie/exaggerate about the relevance of them; how early they've learned to write/read (frequently a lie/exaggeration/delusion); how many things they memorized; use words in other, often romantic/classic languages even though they barely speak them or not at all (they even mispronounce them a lot of times); tell everyone all the smart famous people they "know" (i.e. often just talked to once or simply talked at) flaunt/exaggerate their GDP or grades, etc. Despite their alleged intent, the last thing they want is to share their knowledge or make people any smarter; they want you to never get anywhere near understanding what they're teaching as long as you admire or fear them. Needless to say, they don't want true intellectuals that are truly willing to grow intellectually around them (unless they're gullible enough to forever see themselves as mentally inferior to the narc, even when clearly that's not the case).
On the abusive side, a cerebral will belittle the intelligence of their close ones/S.O.s on a constant basis, if possible in every other sentence they make. They will try to disprove any argument you make, even if their counter-argument is essentially the same as yours, but put in more abstruse, fancier terms. If the slightest correction in their speech is made, they openly insult your intelligence and humiliate you. If the slightest shade of skepticism over their overblown academic/literary achievements is cast by you, they will devalue your very ability to assess anything. They will intentionally and systematically discredit any source you have before you even use them, making any knowledge you've obtained outside of them invalid. That's an attempt to generate intellectual monopoly over their close ones. Anything you've learned that didn't come from them is basically bullshit. Even if you two read the same books, went to the same school or university, took the same courses, have the same diploma, they will always have a superior knowledge. In fact, they'll try to make it especially the case if people have higher academic achievements than they do. They will be particularly virulent towards people like that, as their very presence make this variety of NPD more threatened than anyone else could. This envy will make them go out of their way to undermine or simply soil the reputation of higher academic achievers, make fun of their intellect, ridicule their opinions, conceptions or just anything they say or do. They will self-proclaim your teachers and if you question that position, they will publicly ostracize, scorn you, all the while make a theatrical spectacle out of it. Afterall, that's what being intelligence is all about to them: Performing a farce, playing a role in the most flamboyant possible way. No one sees knowledge through a more superficial and vapid perspective than a cerebral narcissist, ironically.
The funny thing is that this particular kind of narcissist's greatest insecurity is their intelligence. They have traumas related to the belittling of their intellect, often have several academic blunders such as failed courses, bombed classes, undersold books, several competitions lost, admonitions from educational boards, etc. They often rationalize it as being victims of an useless and ignorant system that doesn't truly cultivate or value real intelligence (their intelligence, obviously), incompetence of their teachers, educators/other professionals involved in their education or simply their envy and fear of his brilliance. Anything but taking responsibility for their failed mental/intellectual endeavors. They romanticize a contrived state of victimhood, lamenting over how misunderstood they've always been – all the while taking measures to ensure that nobody CAN understand them at all, even if it takes talking gibberish disguised as arcane, classic vocabulary, making huge-ass sentences that say little to nothing and even using literally codified language and actual enigmas. They complain about how society has cast them away, only to hide from it and actively try to remain obscure (so to avoid true intellectual scrutiny). They're pathological versions of hipsters and fedora neckbeard atheists, making up the cause of their own oh-so poetic demise as well as their "awe-inspiring", conveniently misunderstood grandiosity.
>>189581>It's not only impossible to convince them that you decline their offer, but the more you do so, the more they will insist. This is because altruistic narcissists don't believe that people around them don't need their help. One can go as far as to say that they don't ever believe that people around them aren't expecting their help. And remember, being helped puts anyone in an inferior state to the narc's, so in reality they see others that way because they're all inferior to their narcissistic "saintly" nature. This pathological narcissist will go as far as to to rationalize that you are to blame for not refusing their help – even when you obviously and often repeatedly did.
Obvsiously MIL is the Covert Narc, this is such an integral part of her MO, her form of an apology was saying "I only want to help you, whether you want it or not, and that's my fault". She literally thinks nothing can done without her guidance and if you stand in the way of her sticking her nose in your shit, you obviously have a very personal problem with her (she's accused Japanese people of being racist towards her specifically).
What's interesting is I was explaining to a close friend of mine about MIL, and it's tough because unless they know the Narc, a lot of the examples sound petty, but the more and more I was explaining the behavior, friend immediately was like "oh shit, that's my dad to a T", and it really brought a lot of relief that she wasn't crazy or making a big deal out of nothing in regards to her dad's behavior. Covert Narcs are just the king and queens of tormenting their own family in secret.
She's just an incredible callous person.>Lives 6hours away>Sent her a picture of me in my wedding dress when I first tried it on>No response>Text her again a week later about it and her answer was>"Oh, I was just surprised you wanted one like that, it'll be really great once it's tailored…Sorry, I was in a musical when you first texted."
And that's one of the least disappointing/shitty things she's said that I can think of.
Not married but my long term bf's mom is like this too +bipolar +crazy art lady.
Stay strong, dont let Jocasta get you down.
I'd say the one that looks more like him will be the golden child and the other will be the scapegoat. If, however, it's true that he has one daughter, then I think she will be the golden child. There's a tendency to see the opposite sex child unconsciously as a romantic partner. That was the case with Greg, as his mother seems to have sexualyzed him, seeing him as the substitute for the husband she kicked out. Seems like there's often an underlying incestuous relationship between a narcissist and their opposite gender parent. Greg's mom gave him naked full body massages, for example. Trump, a classic pathological narcissist, sexualizes his daughter, Ivanka, saying he'd date her if he wasn't her father.