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What right does any governmental body have to forcefully sustain a person that is in extreme physical, mental and emotional pain and has issued a clear desire to die?
Why is it when animals are sick we put them down as a mercy, but humans that are so sick they are beyond any form of reprieve or cure, we hook them up to machines that artificially sustain them, pump them full of drugs so that half their time is spent in a delirium and the other half in agony, and then we call this "humanity"? That's what's really sick.
It's not the state's decision, they're not the one suffering so they don't GET a say.
I know realistically nothing could have been done to take away those pain and memories.
I just wish the people who sexually abused her could have been 'euthanized' first. Sexual abuse can "kill" a person and turn them completely into somebody else.
This is the saddest thing I've read in awhile. I think most (if not all) women have gone through some kind of sexual assault or trauma and a lot of us learn to live with it, but I think there are some things so horrible, you just can't get over it. A lot of women develop EDs or alcohol/drug abuse…
It goes to really show that we need to stop this at its source so no more victims can appear. So sad. We need to teach people (esp men) not to rape/sexually assault people. I think it's shit it needs to be taught, but it does.. I mean, look at those refugees from Syria and how much trouble they're causing in Germany and Sweden.
>>91608>Why is it when animals are sick we put them down as a mercy, but humans that are so sick they are beyond any form of reprieve or cure, we hook them up to machines that artificially sustain them, pump them full of drugs so that half their time is spent in a delirium and the other half in agony, and then we call this "humanity"? That's what's really sick.
Agree with this. It's so sad either way.>>91613
This society needs to take sexual assault and rape more seriously. I feel like it's a damn joke to most people, especially in the courts. We need to prevent it from happening to begin with.
From how her state was described in the article, it sounded like she wasn't really 'living' anyway. With mental illness, I really believe that it's incurable in most cases, at least to some extent. Especially if it's a result of trauma, you just can't ever forget it. You either learn to deal around it, or you can't, and who could blame you if you couldn't?
At least with euthanasia, she went peacefully and painlessly. I hope she can rest in peace.
According to RTL nieuws the trauma specialist said she was improving.
Then she started starving herself, dropped 10 kg in 2 weeks, and then the treating psychiatrist decided to approve euthanizing her. It seems they hadn't even started treating her for an eating disorder. They hadn't tried everything possible to save her.>>91741
The Netherlands has issues with dealing with abuse in general. Often it isn't taken seriously, or reporting does little to nothing. Whether it be sexual abuse, child abuse etc.
I think it's more important that victims are encouraged to report it, that the cops take it seriously and actually investigate. If it's difficult to get away with it, actual abusers and rapists will think twice.
The reporting system in the Netherlands is flawed. I talked with a police officer about it. They categorize reports by who reported it. Multiple people could report the same person, but that won't be visible in the system. So multiple people could call on a parent who is abusive, or a loverboy (human trafficker of young girls who are forced into prostitution), or whatever.
The police is understaffed, underfunded, and the report system is flawed. So many reports are "lost" or not followed up upon.
I know a girl who reported a loverboy together with some other girls, but the police never even talked to the guy.
I myself reported potential child abuse, neighbors did too. Never heard about it again, so I asked how that could happen.
The real travesty is that statistically he probably never received punishment.
My abuser never even went to prison even though the way he was finally caught out was after he went to an employers house to fit a kitchen and the wife walked in on him diddling her toddler.
Our society is still largely operated by men who, by their nature, automatically assume that all sexual activity is good sexual activity, thus many can't fully understand why somebody being on the receiving end of said sex, the thing they all strive to attain, could possibly be traumatised by it.
Hence why when you hear stories of young, teenage boys being abused by females all the comments on news articles are some variation of "Corr get in there lad!" or "they didn't have teachers like this when I was a kid!". You only need to take a trip to /r9k/ to get an idea of how the dregs of society feel about rape, that is they don't it seriously at all because "it's just sex, get over it. Just be happy they didn't murder you and move on", "you're already giving it away to Chad every weekend anyway, what's the big deal".
Obviously this doesn't just fuck up female sex abuse victims but males too.
Go get raped then whore
oh I need this
but no because 100% of them are just suicidal and you're just feeding their illness, but if transsexualism is allowed why not this? but this is great. Thank you OP. I see light in life again. I am incurable and because of this my life gets worse and worse so I need this.
Obviously the medical professionals treating her believed she had.
Are you a medical professional Anon? Where did you study? What's your area of specialty? I trust you knew this woman personally?
The trauma specialist said she was improving.
Then her psychiatrist saw her, and apparently she lost 10 kg in 2 weeks, and decided that she should be allowed to be euthanized. They hadn't even tried treating her for an eating disorder.
I actually read more than just this article. I looked up the articles from my own country, with all the information.
Oh how fast you would change your mind if it was you or a close family member that was suffering from some intolerably cruel, agonising disease.
I suppose any pets you have that get sick you keep artifically alive and in pain as well.
I completely disagree. If someone is feels they do not wish to carry on anymore, be it from a physical or mental illness who is anyone to say they must live? I think it's selfish for society to force someone who has decided that they wish to die to continue living.
From the outside it may seem irrational that anyome may wish to end their life, but that is not our problem. We aren't the ones with insight into the struggles that the people who choose assisted suicide are.
What would you propose we do? Burn our bras and scream male privilege like you faggots? Rape is taken very seriously here, but when someone chooses to confess after 5 years then there's not much that can be done. Besides, you can't really help a person as unhinged as this lady.
Thirdly, Dutch people are faggots.
How many of you guys have ever experienced true pain?
I don't mean like a heavy headache or a broken bone, I mean serious, agonising, writhing, clawing-at-the-wallpaper suffering.
For anybody that has experienced this, you'll in the moment likely have experienced those thoughts of "kill me, I'd rather be dead, please just make it end". Then you need to imagine that there is no help for you, the help has been applied and none of it is working, you're completely on your own, you're suffering so deeply and their is no magic pill to fix or or surgery to remove the thing that's harming you.
Suicide by euthanisia doesn't seem so irrational at this point, and it affords the sufferer more dignity then them being found hanging from the rail of a closet or in a bathtub with their wrists slashed to the bone.
>>91902>Do you think people feel bad about this?
Are you bipolar? I dont want people to feel bad>cremation is much more efficient anyway.
what? thats exactly what I said? But if an important person or good person wants to be buried he or she has the right to do so with a nice stone too to remember the greatness of that person.
who cares if I deleted them, I didn't want to offend the ones who think this should be done because it's clear my opinion is unpopular in this thread. But deleting them doesn't help since you brought it up. Thanks for calling me insane for saying mentally ill people should get the help they need instead of commiting suicide. I thought suicide was a short term solution, but this is what they told me.
You really think they just hand out death pills to anyone ? It takes years and several specialists to get the approval and you can say no until the last second.
People are calling you dumb because you are dumb.
They hadn't even started treating her for an eating disorder. As soon as she developed one, they gave up.
The trauma specialist said she was improving, and instead of continuing treatment, they decided to approve euthanizing her.
10 SCEN doctors could say no, but if only 1 approves it, you can be euthanized.
In the Netherlands they deem people very quickly incurable or a lost cause when it comes to mental health. While not even having tried different types of meds or treatments.
She asked for a very long time to be euthanized, but they hadn't even started the applying process, until she lost 10 kg in 2 weeks. This specific case just seems very rushed, since yes usually the approval process takes quite some time.
yeah, posts, sorry.
I was talking about one of the first person to post in this thread, you can see several respond who link to nothing, I think it's weird that she deleted all of her post, make her look mental.
Oh my god you dumb slut you have NO idea how long they've been treating her.
She was being abused and raped from the ages of 5 to 15 right? Do you know what was done to her? Do you know what her physical state was? Do you have any idea how important those years are in terms of cognitive, emotional and mental development are? Do you have any idea how fucked up she would have been?
She was in her 20's right? That's an entire lifetime of mental degradation that trained professionals had obviously been treating for over a decade at this point, and they obviously felt she was beyond reprieve.
This isn't a case of them picking up some suicidal person who'd never been in treatment before and deciding to strap them down and murder them, this is a woman who'd been in treatment for over a DECADE who felt that at this stage in her life it was less painful for her to go to sleep forever in a comfortable dignified manner than be forced to live out her torturous existence where the memories of what had happened to her replayed over and over in her own little VIP silver screen for which she could never escape. Your fat arse doesn't get to fucking decide what somebody else does with THEIR life.
I sware on me mam you fucking cunts make me so mad I wish somebody would fucking euthanise you, trying to twist the arguments into your own little fantasy because you're too emotionally stunted to cope with the reality that your precious little Tumblr fee-fees don't mean shit to the world.
It's not a mindset, it's a fact.
You think you as a person have any right to a say over my
life? Get over yourself cunt, you're nothing.
Hell yes I'm fucking mean. The people arguing against the tortured being able to pass away in dignity are little shits who've grown their entire lives away in their ivory towers surrounded by their luxuries and their privileges.
Nobody who has ever actually suffered in their life could possibly argue against giving people the right to take their own life if they wish. They get all haughty and high because they don't understand, because they don't know what real pain is nor what it's like to be forced to suffer it.
Thank you for calling me a dumb slut and making assumptions, but I actually have been through something similar. I'm fucked up myself, I know how important those years are in terms of development, because I missed it all.
I'm from the Netherlands myself, I've been in contact with Dutch psychiatry for a decade, and I had a psychiatrist tell me that if they were me they would've killed themselves. They gave up on me very quickly, while they hadn't even tried different types of medication, or even EDMR therapy.
But thank you for calling me a dumb slut, I tell myself (and the voices) that already everyday, for being so stupid that I got myself raped when I was 7, and let physical abuse happen from age 4 to 16.
I'm very grateful for my new GP, who does believe I can get better, and for the meds she prescribed to me, since I already improved at least a bit now.
Dutch psychiatry isn't that great when mental health professionals suggest suicide and tell you ghosts are real and that if you hallucinate you should seek religion.
"Heavy painkiller work on people with terrible chronic pain" "oh, yeah? Then why not give them to people who scrape their knees!"
Yeah, ok, sure.
Good, I'm glad you've accepted the reality your situation.
You claim to have been through something similar, as have I, then you should understand more than most the long-term damage that comes with these kind of abuses. I thought I could lock mine away behind a brick hole with a porthole, and only occasionally look back upon it in a haze, as if it were a dream, or cnvince myself that I made it all up and that I'm lying for attention, but it doesn't work.
So long as you continue to assert that people who're suffering intolerable pain on a daily basis should be disbarred by the state of control of their existence I will continue to call you a dumb slut.
Don't worry anon I'll have your back, you're not a slut anon is just primitive and bitter. She was being completely rude and made assumptions because she thinks people who oppose euthanasia (for mentally ill people) are totez people with a perfect Kim Kardashian life! I am from the Netherlands too and I can really relate to that psychiatry part. They didn't tell me that because I can't tell them my true feelings but they did give up completely on me and I have a feeling that if I told them "suicide is the only option" they would recommend me euthanasia. In one of my impulsive episodes I would probably completely give in and imo that's just plain wrong. Mentally ill people are often impulsive and our choices cannot be taken seriously, as weird as it sounds. We're like margo swinging everywhere with our moods and thoughts.
Ok I'll make people angry again so I'll stop talking about this, we obviously cannot change other people's minds.
>>91965>I will call you a dumb slut because i dont agree with your opinion>girl got raped by pedos
I knew it! You're narcissistic after all! >>91963>implying there aren't plenty of people who suffer hard shit on /g/ and the vent thread
go away shoo shoo lurk more
Where did I say I didn't want to die?
I still secretly have a plan to commit suicide by asphyxiation, and the only reason why I won't do it is because I'm against suicide, and know I'd 'regret it', because there's always the chance that something good will happen to me.
Yeah, sure, go on with your special brand of crazy where it's not ok for doctors to euthanize legit uncurable people but ok to tell random people to kill themselves.
It makes so much sense now.
"But if abortion is an option, won't everybody start having abortions?"
…It's just not how that shit works.
That's exactly why I'm against euthanasia for psychiatric patients. We are often not wilsbekwaam/mentally competent by nature.>>91974
When you aren't mentally competent, you aren't allowed to be euthanized for physical reasons. So why should someone who is severely mentally ill, mentally incompetent by definition, then be allowed to be euthanized? Especially since mental suffering and mental health is way more complicated than physical health, and you can't be of certainty that someone is incurable or won't improve, like you can with physical health.
Awww you are so logical and nice, why is that anon being so mean to you? ;___;
It's so strange how even when you formulate an opinion in a good way there are people who will hate you and your opinion. I really don't understand life but I'm glad that there are still a few people who think what I think. Although my life is not like a fresh breeze of air, it's certainly not as bad as yours or the girl in the news. When that anon said that you dont think about suicide she obviously has a strong lack of empathy, with what you have been through I think you must be thinking about suicide at least once a week. At least I do and my life is not as bad as yours, well idk tbh. But it's different and I had only been sexually abused three times for example. But I noticed when my environment gets better and my way of thinking I can cope things much better. And even though I did it without my shit team of psychologists I think I would have been cured by now if I had gotten better treatments. Suicidal people like me should not be allowed euthanasia, next week I'll say that I love my life etc…
It seems that in the Netherlands it is much easier to be euthanasied than to get good treatments. Yesterday I felt glad when I read the article because I felt really shit and I seriously wanted to have a talk with my GP, but now I kind of pulled myself together I realized this is terrible that people agree with this AND allow this!>suicidal mood swings
I knew it, people like us are like margo. We can say one day that life is amazing and the next day that life is hell.>>91985
Yep. And someone who does agree with euthanasia can blog everywhere because she is not bothering you for having a different opinion. This is /b/, I am ontopic etc… so read my blog and give it 5 stars pretty please
Especially since the budget cuts in the Mental Health department, and the blunder with the Personal Bounded Budget, all of the sudden there are more applications for euthanasia, because people aren't being treated anymore.
Then also because of the huge influx of refugees, mental health professionals are too busy. There is a high prevalence of mental illness among them apparently, and they are getting emergency treatment. Which they definitely need.
So it's easier for them to just recommend euthanasia or put you in prison (yes this sometimes happens), than actually treating people.
Thanks for reminding me, I actually have been put in prison because of this when I was a child. I was an odd shy girl so they thought I was psychotic lol…and because they never listen they just diagnosed me a bunch of other shit so it took 3 years for me to get out.
I hate the whole health system in the Netherlands so whoever is going to tell me that euthanasia for mental reasons should be allowed because professionals are telling you that sometimes there are no options I'll tell them that they put "weird people" in prisons too because "sometimes there is no option to stay home".
Sorry for blogging but I feel this is necessary to mention because people dont realize how many flaws there are in the Netherlands. And I completely agree with you.>>91993
Lol! When life is shit you cannot properly think! I dont have BPD, but I do know that when you dont have a calm mind, and thats impossible when you're not stable, you regret making decisions you so thought were true at heart when you were in tears or when something reminded you of the past (and with PTSD this can happen often). If you are stable enough to make big decisions then why is that girl in OP unable to live life as everyone?
You don't help a drug addict use drugs.
You don't help an anorexic starve themselves.
You don't help a suicidal person kill themselves.
You don't enforce a delusional person their delusions.
Since every person should apparently always be allowed to do whatever they want, we shouldn't be allowed to stop an anorexic from starving themselves or try to have a drug addict stop doing drugs.
You see, this logic doesn't actually work, you don't always know what is best for you.
Cancer patients life is shit. Cancer patients get depressed and suicidal.
Yes, you're BPD shit and don't know if you want to die or not. You legitimately should be treated like the 8 yo you are and be restricted access to knifes. I have GAD, and I want the option to be euthanized. I'm lucid and it's my fucking choice, whether your precious self wants it or not.
Yes and with cancer patients they can properly determine that their cancer is or isn't incurable and that they will most likely die a painful death.
You can't do that with mental health.
But why not? Honestly we have so many humans in the world, someone who is unable to function AND doesn't want to live AND has the physical ability to end their life shouldn't be stopped from doing so.
And actually, we DO enforce delusions if they are far enough gone. I went with my friend to her mom's mental hospital and a man there believed he was an orange, and that everyone was trying to peel him. You think standing there and saying he isn't, or refusing to treat him as such is going to help? No, he'd be an array of flying kicks, fists and bites. He's too delusional to ever be granted euthanasia, but that's a really extreme case. There are people far gone enough to want to exit stage left on their own terms, and not too far gone that they don't understand it's implications.
They don't even allow people who have dementia or Alzheimer's, who have signed a contract when they were mentally competent, that if they were to get dementia or Alzheimer's, they want to be euthanized, to be euthanized.
So then it boggles me, that they would allow a severely mentally ill person, who is by definition mentally incompetent, to be euthanized.>>92005
Mental illness makes you less capable of making right decisions. They might make you decide to starve themselves, use drugs, kill themselves, kill someone, cut yourself, pull out all your hair, eat until your stomach ruptures. Want me to go on?
How about: trying to make them better or improve their quality of life.
Why does everyone forget that option? You know, therapy, meds, support?
Sure, I'm all for better care. But for some people, that just is not working.
I hate the incompetent argument because it's a gateway to just throw people in hospital and left them there against their will.
There is a difference with respecting a person their delusion, and trying to make them more delusional.
You don't tell a person who tries to rationalize to themselves that monsters/ghosts don't exist, because science doesn't have prove for it, that monsters exist and that they'll come and kill you.
>>92011>They don't even allow people who have dementia or Alzheimer's, who have signed a contract when they were mentally competent, that if they were to get dementia or Alzheimer's, they want to be euthanized, to be euthanized.
So then it boggles me, that they would allow a severely mentally ill person, who is by definition mentally incompetent, to be euthanized.
no one is going to be able to prove you wrong now
Don't you get the problem with how mental illnesses work and when you'd be severely mentally suffering?
If you are only mildly mentally ill, you wouldn't be severely suffering, and even though you are competent, because you aren't severely suffering, they won't approve your application for euthanasia.
But if you are suicidal, you aren't exactly showing an inkling of mental illness, suicidality is pretty damn serious.
Anxiety and OCD can feel like pure he'll. My point was that they are some mental illness who make you lose touch of reality and some where you retain lucidity. Pain is there and level of competence are different. >>92026
It was irony.
Ok so why do the rude edgy kids itt seem to overwhelm the people who formulate their opinion in a civilized way?>>92030
You didn't even read her posts, she has NEVER written her posts in a childish format like you. She herself said that she has been through something similair like the girl we're talking about.
>Kinderen worden door Bureau Jeugdzorg in een jeugdgevangenis geplaatst, omdat er te weinig opvangplaatsen zijn, zowel voor ambulante zorg, crisishulp en gesloten jeugdzorg.
You can use google translation, but I'll sum it up for you:
>Child protective services put children out of abusive homes in prison, because they don't have enough shelters.
At least Bureau Jeugdzorg has been disbanded this year, so I hope that the municipalities who now have to protect children, won't do the same.
From around age 10 to 18. They don't differentiate between who is a real criminal and who is there because their home isn't safe.
But even prison is technically better than the jeugdzorg shelters. Multiple times the directors of those shelters came out to be pedophiles who molested the children.
So in the Netherlands, if you are an abused child, you are kind of fucked.
They treated me like everyone else. (to that anon who dislikes my blogs kiss my ass tbh)>>92050
And dont forget about the kids who actually aren't abused at home! It's a mess there!
One person who was euthanized, ciska, you can google her case, basically lost her long term psychotherapist (don't know why) and didn't have a lot of stability in treatment.
Which resulted in her becoming hopeless and wanting to be euthanized and it was a GP/huisarts who approved it.
She was a victim of the system, and instead of trying to fix it, they just killed her.
How about: help her and treat her and don't just give up.
You act as if the only choices are euthanasia or suicide, there is also this thing called help.
Well if we start helping suicidal people kill themselves, should we also start helping anorexics starve themselves, or drug addicts to use drugs etc.?
Should you reinforce something that is part of a disease?
M8 if you're dutch you'd know that>Multiple doctors needed to look into the situation.
just one SCEN-doctor is enough for the decision, even if 30 disagree (sorry for copying that other dutch anon but she is right). I do think your grandfather made the right decision. The article was being civil though, the girl stayed anonymous and no detail was left out.
No not slippery slope fallacy.
Being suicidal is part of mental illness, I don't think you should reinforce a disease. It's on par with providing a drugs junkie with drugs or helping an anorexic starve themselves.
There's also a big difference between someone suffering from a physical, measurable illness, who is incurable and who is going to die soon anyway and giving them a painless death. And someone suffering from a mental illness, which is way more difficult to measure, and you can't say with certainty that someone is incurable or won't ever improve.
With mental illness, suicidality is part of the illness, not something that accompanies it, it is how they want to cope. Some people want to kill themselves, some use drugs (or some other addiction), some starve themselves, some cut themselves etc.
What just bothers me is that a lot of people with terminal cancer, or people with dementia/Alzheimer's who have signed a declaration of intention beforehand, don't get approved.
But if some person their psychotherapist isn't available and they can't seem to get a hold of a therapist, and because of that worsen, they can just ask a GP to be euthanized and it gets approved.
That just shows that the system doesn't work, at all.
That is completely wrong. Suicide can be a rational decision, who are you or anyone to claim that someone has to live for society rather than to be able to decude rationally that they wish to cease?
Was the Russian soldier whao was being surrounded by Daesh mentally ill because he ordered himself to be bombed? No, you have a very narrow minded view.
Choosing death rather than prolonging a deterioration of physical or mental health in the case of the woman is a rational thing to do. We put down animals for this.
Forcing someone to take pills or food doesn't mean they will be cured ffs. Mental illness is mostly caused by environmental factors, you can't undo the trauma that woman has suffered.
Sometimes it is more compassionate to just not prolong the inevitable (death). Would you really say "MORE TREATMENT" to a 90 year old woman with terminal brain cancer, when you know that even giving her solid food would cause great discomfort to her body?
Honestly you sound quite naive.
I already made the distinction ffs. If you are going to die soon already, or have a physically measurable illness that is incurable, then euthanasia is an option that gives you the chance to die with dignity.
But when you are mentally ill, remember the distinction between physical and mental, suicidality is just another symptom. You can't measure how severe a mental illness is or know with any certainty of that person will not improve. With PHYSICAL illnesses, it IS measurable and they can know it with certainty.
When you are mentally ill, suicidality is just as much a symptom as the others. You wouldn't enforce any of the other symptoms, so why would you enforce suicidality? That's like helping an anorexic starve themselves or giving a drugs junkie drugs.
If you are physically severely ill, or are going to die soon anyway, suicidality ISN'T part of your disease, it is a result of the situation.
A very physically sick person, you will give morphine to make them have less pain. But you shouldn't just also give morphine to an opiate junkie, because he claims to be in pain after not having shot heroin in 2 days. Do you get this analogy? When it is part of the disease, you shouldn't enforce it.
… You're so dense it makes my head hurts. You can be suicidal AND have a mental illness without it being related. When your life is shitty and you know you're beyond functioning in a normal way, wanting to die is rational.
Stop equating it to wanting drugs, it's just dumb. You don't get high by killing yourself. It nowhere near equivalent. Dying is no fucking drug.
And stop fucking acting like forcing people to bear the unbearable is going to make them miraculously better. Have you ever been in a psychiatric hospital? They are full of long term patient who've been living in hell for 10y+ and want nothing more than to die.
Go look at that shit and tell me it's protecting them to keep them alive against their will when they are so damaged they won't ever be able to reintegrate society.
Life is not precious, ffs. People live and then they die. Refusing to accept that, sometimes, life is too painful for some people and that they just won't get better just show you have hang ups with a natural part of the human experience.
People in psychiatric hospitals aren't even allowed to be approved for euthanasia in the Netherlands.
Again, the people who get approved, often had unstable treatment, had a different psychologist every time, or were given up on while they were improving.
If Dutch psychiatry wasn't horrible, and these people were properly treated and it truly was a last resort, I could consider it being a good option. But killing someone while they were improving, or just because someone their psychotherapist is unavailable is lunacy. It isn't used as a last resort, it's used as a cop out for our horrible mental health system.
Some conditions are incurable by definition, but can be improved on, that's what should be focused on.
Sorry that I think you shouldn't be euthanized just because your psychotherapist is unavailable, or because your psychiatrist is ignoring the trauma specialist. Or because they aren't bothered to even START treating you.
And she was improving according to the trauma specialist, but the psychiatrist decided it was impossible for her to improve, so they euthanized her. Something isn't right there.
And how about you google some other cases huh? Ciska, like I mentioned already before in the thread, was euthanized because her psychotherapist wasn't available. She just went to her GP and they got her approved.
Or how about that most people who apply for euthanasia weren't even diagnosed before they applied?
I'm not talking about just this specific case, I'm talking about how the approval system for euthanasia in the Netherlands is fucked and that a lot of victims of our shitty system end up getting killed instead of getting help. While someone with terminal cancer or dementia wouldn't be approved.
Or how about if 30 SCEN doctors don't approve you, you could just keep on looking for one that says yes. Does that sound like a good system? Just keep looking until you find someone who agrees with you?
You're in denial, since according to you it's IMPOSSIBLE that some countries their mental health care is shitty.
Where does it say that it takes 2 years? https://www.nvve.nl/wat-euthanasie/zorgvuldige-uitvoering
YOU decide when you die, you are allowed to pick the date yourself when you are approved for euthanasia.
Yes of course a suicidal person will consent to being euthanized. But she wasn't exactly mentally competent to make such decisions, due to being severely mentally ill.
Who are YOU to decide what that womam did with her life, she didn't owe you anything.
I honestly don't care if you deem her to be incapable to consent, she was suffering we will never have insight into that suffering, all we know is that she decided that her life was to end because of reasons that honestly shouldn't matter. Her body, her choice.
I'm mentally ill myself, I'm from the Netherlands, I have experience with the Dutch mental health care myself.
Have you ACTUALLY read what mental health problems she has? She doesn't have a mild anxiety disorder or mild depression, she is severely mentally ill. She had psychotic symptoms, she wouldn't have even been allowed to drive in the Netherlands. I wouldn't call that someone who is competent enough to make such permanent decisions.>>92198
Her body, her choice? So we should all stop trying to get anorexics to stop starving themselves, and we should never try to get a junkie clean, because their body their choice. Obviously everyone ALWAYS knows what's best for them. >>92198
You people are really acting as if suicide and euthanasia were the only options for her. If the Dutch mental health care wasn't so shitty, maybe it wouldn't have come this fucking far. Is it really so horrible that I'd rather have people get proper fucking help, than that they get euthanized INSTEAD of getting actual help?
Ugh, you sound like a broken record. Yeah, yeah, care is shitty, so no one should be euthanized? That's pretty bizarre logic you have here. You're talking like thousand of people are euthanasied instead of receiving care. That's pretty ridiculous.
Care isn't good anywhere if you want my opinion. Our understanding of mental illness is still pretty shallow. Killing off people who can't deal at all is not a cop out, it's giving them the reprieve they can't have. You should be happy, it free up beds for people who could actually be cured.
Stop acting like it's a fucking genocide. We all know it's not.
They shouldn't euthanize psychiatric patients that fast, and the approval process should be more strict.
Again, they aren't euthanizing people who have been in a psychiatric hospital for 10+ years, those people aren't even eligible for the application process. This isn't freeing up beds.
Someone their psychotherapist could be unavailable, or the GGZ could switch up their treating psychiatrists all the time. You do know that the relationship between a patient and their doctor is important, right? Should someone, because GGZ can't be bothered to just appoint a psychiatrist or psychologist to them, be euthanized?
I just know how easily they suggest euthanasia, because they suggested it to me, while they hadn't even started treating me for something specific, and weren't even bothered to try different medication on me. If I would've been just a tad bit more suicidal back then, I would've been dead right now. And it would've been a mistake, you don't just euthanize someone because you can't be bothered to help them.
That's more about the fact that you're a cunt you can't figure out that people should make their own choices.
But hey, you're so invested because, gasp, that could have happened to you. Looks like it didn't, tho. Because eh, guess what, it was your choice.
You don't get it, do you?
You don't always know what is best for you. Do you really think that an anorexic starving themselves, knows what the best for themselves is? Do you think that a drugs junkie know what the best for themselves is?
Did you know what choice I actually got? It wasn't given as an option to me, I was told that was the only thing they could do for me. Don't you think some people when they are told that they won't be helped, will take the euthanasia option?
Yeah, they will take it and maybe it will be better than years of useless treatment. Stop with the junkies and anas. This have nothing to do with this. You can't take fondamental choices about their life from people. Life, is one of them. How would you react if the choice of marrying and having children was taken from mentally ill people because they are deemed incompetent? It's the same thing. Yeah, maybe it's a bad choice and still, it's not yours to make for them.
Taking drug is not fondamental. Wanting to live or not is.
So it's better to euthanzie someone, instead of at least attempting to treat someone?
Well some mentally ill people shouldn't have custody of children. If your mental illness causes you to abuse your children as an example, you shouldn't have custody of them. Doesn't matter that your need to abuse little children is because of your illness. Abusers shouldn't have custody.
Marriage isn't permanent, death is. Euthanasia is a big and permanent choice, and the approval system around it should be strict. It should be used as a last resort, not just because someone their psychotherapist is unavailable or because GGZ isn't bothered to treat you.
Just because you don't want mentally ill or handicapped people to marry, of have kids, doesn't mean you're allowed to stop them. Your right to hate and judge them for their decision is fine up until you think you can decide what is best for them.
That's what you're doing - you're telling people you know better than them, and you know what's best FOR them. I think poor people shouldn't have kids but THAT ISN'T HOW LIFE WORKS.
If you think people consider suicide lightly period, even without forced waiting times, you're a fucking retard. Guess you shouldn't marry or have kids by your own admitted logic.
Look, you obviously are in the minority wuith your opinion thank god. Why go off on a tangent, comparing this woman's struggle to parents abusing their children and drug addiction!?
The judgement made was progressive, mental trauma is just as painful and life limiting as physical trauma. The woman did not choose to be abused, she obviously rationalised her choices and was given the consent to have them respected.
Now please grow up, your opinions seem so immature. Are you even aware that most psychiatric drugs can cause more harm than good? And that forcing any form of treatment on someone is a legal matter and can too cause severe trauma?
Did I say anything about not allowing them to marry or have kids? Did I? No. Then why go on about that? You're just seeking something to be angry about.
I'm just saying, that the euthanasia approval system should be more strict, and that it shouldn't be done for every little small thing, and that they should first actually try to help people, instead of giving up.
I have gone through a similar thing as her, I've already explained that earlier in the thread. I know damn well how painful it is. Why do you think they even suggested fucking euthanasia to me?
Do you know what's also traumatic? HAVING PEOPLE GIVE UP ON YOU, WITHOUT EVEN FUCKING TRYING. I'm just suggesting that GGZ should sort their shit out, actually start helping people, and not giving up so fast.
And I know damn well that psychiatric drugs can do more harm than good. But just because it went wrong with anti depressants, doesn't mean you can't try out anti psychotics as an example. All meds have their risks, and you have to weigh out the benefits and the cons.
And apparently you are very bad at reading, since I HAVEN'T compared her struggles to anything. I have only tried to fucking explain, that suicidality is a symptom, when it comes to mental illness, and that you don't enforce symptoms.
I'm not even talking about specifically this woman her case ffs, I'm talking about how GGZ works, and how euthanasia for psychiatric patients work, and how many cases are suspicious.
People are saying here that for every little psychiatric issue, you should be allowed to be euthanized. I say: how about getting help. And then people bring up this woman again, while I wasn't even talking about her specifically.
We aren't talking about eugenics for goodness sake. We are discussing one woman's personal choice, and that her suffering should be respected in the same way that others who go to assisted suicide clinics is.
Who is anyone to say that someone must live to their expectations? This woman lived for herself, and she decided and was given the consent to have her decision respected, I think many who disagree with this on this thread are projecting their own insecurities on the deceased woman.
Again. The trauma specialist said she was improving. Psychiatrist said it's impossible for her to improve. That kind of sounds like giving up.
She only needs 1 SCEN doctor to approve it. 30 people can say she isn't a hopeless cause, and 1 person can say she is, and it's approved. It's a flawed system, so even if she really was a lost cause, and should be allowed to be euthanized, you can't know that for sure. I'm sorry that I think that the euthanasia system should be more strict, and should be less flawed.
Also ever heard of 'wilsbekwaamheid'? Huh? Mental competence. They have to assess if she is mentally competent to have such autonomy. And the articles don't make her sound like someone who is mentally competent. She only needs to find 1 doctor to deem her mentally competent. She could go on asking 100 doctors until she finally finds one who agrees with her. That just doesn't sound like a good system.
Would you apply the same to a person visiting that clinic who has M.E? They commit suicide whilst still having life in them, still having treatments available but have decided to travel to the suicide clinic and as you put it "give up"?
Every single client of these assisted suicide centres could in your eyes still receive some form of treatment to keep them physically alive, but for whose benefit? You obviously don't believe in autonomy of a patient which is vile.
Imagine if the death penalty would be executed as soon as you could find 1 person that would deem the person guilty. It doesn't matter that 100 judges say they aren't. >>92233
Imagine, if your dog has an illness that might be fixed with antibiotics. But your vet isn't bothered to even try the antibiotics. So they say: 'either I put the dog down, or you fuck off'.
I'm not against euthanasia as a concept, I'm against the flawed Dutch euthanasia system and the mental health system.
Don't care about animal euthanasia, if the owner wants to do it why not? Pets are property. But for some autists a game is their beloved too.
I'm against war.
Against death penalty simply because there have been cases where the "criminal" was actually a victim>>92235
nice assumption. im pro abortion, but imo there are women who do abortion waayyy to late where the baby actually is "alive". But yeah generally im pro abortion. But I hate those women who see joy in having abortion as a comeback or something.
Most of us who are against euthanasia for mentally ill people are pro euthanasia for cancer patients etc… plz understand this
You can't just keep treating a patient who is not responding to it, or the treatment may cause more harm than positive.
We have already discussed this. Maybe read up on the ethics if you care enough.
Why should a woman who is suffering through being abused, who has life limiting conditions because of this be treated any lesser than someone with ME?
Both can respond to treatment in your eyes.
Imagine a person comes to GGZ with mental health problems. They set up a plan, and decide to give you [this therapy] and [these meds]. After a year, the treatment isn't working. Treatment stops.
Few years later, you go again. You get again the same treatment. After a year, the treatment of course isn't working. Treatment stops.
Now, what should they do? Should they suggest euthanasia? Should they try the SAME treatment again in a few years? Or should they try a DIFFERENT treatment?
In my opinion, they should try a different treatment BEFORE suggesting euthanasia. And if the different treatment works, you shouldn't just ignore it and then STILL suggest euthanasia.
You probably have the idea that they try different things before suggesting euthanasia? Well no.
Is suicidality part of the symptoms of ME? No.
Is suicidality part of the symptoms of PTSD and other mental illnesses? Yes.
Ok, you just know nothing about treatments. There's not a billion of them available. You try benzos, then ADs, then neuroleptics. You try therapy. Maybe you go the electroshocks route. And then it's over. You've done it all. And be you can do it in approximately 3years. There's not an infinity of molecules. If you don't respond to any of that stuff, you're just fucked. And trying again another AD or neuroleptic is not going to change that.
I understand that you're a mental patient and want to retain hope about treatment, but more often than not, for serious cases, there's just no good treatment and no hope of remission. It's life, very few people get a happy ending.
Exactly, I don't understand why saying so is such a taboo. We are still in the middle ages when it comes to treating mental illness, and the idea that you can treat mental illness as being a "chemical inbalance" is nonsense!
Medication for mental illness is not one based on fact, it's trial and a lot of error. It is a fact though that the meds can cause serious side effects and take 10 years off your life.
The woman had obviously gone through countless rounds of medication changes, and she still was the same trauma victim. She was strong enough to realise that for her ending her life was the rational decision and I find it so rude that some are questioning her autonomy simply because she had a mental health diagnosis.
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun, plural autonomies.
independence or freedom, as of the will or one's actions:
the autonomy of the individual.
the condition of being autonomous; self-government or the right of self-government:
The rebels demanded autonomy from Spain.
a self-governing community.
Maybe he was actually an orange? Who's to say your perception of reality is the right one? Ashley believes she's going to live until she's 70, quirks thinks she's curvy, asha thinks she's a redhead and OP thinks they're not a fag. Everyone has their little delusions.
I think if the orange dude or whoever else that's mentally ill wants to die, they should have the right to. So what if they're "unsound"? Who's to say their way of seeing the world is wrong? Who are you to impose a different reality on them?
you're retarded or that bullshitter
I've been thinking lately, I'm a person that fears death, like all of us. Those that say they don't are either liars, too stupid to grasp the concept of 'death' as a reality, or they're achieved genuine transcendence and become a living buddha.
Sometimes at night I lie away and I feel my heart beating away, ba-dump, ba-dump, ba-dump, aware that at some point in my life, my body will one day betray me and it will cease function forever. Death in most cases is painful isn't it? Even if the victim is at the moment unconscious, the pain is still there. For those that are conscious, what an unpleasant demise.
I think this is the next step forward for us you know. For those of us that do manage to reach an old age where we're riddled with affliction and don't want to face the horror of death, a euthanasia system in which the old can choose to enter into after a series of consultations and reviews. This is something I would use. I don't want to go out of this world painfully, incoherent, delirious and suffering, but it's all coming for us all the same.
Babby's first "what if my red is, like, your green and my green is your red, dude!?"
Read a fucking book, that's not how shit works.
Anon you've entirely missed the point of this. This phrase is a reaction to the way in which people respond to women as both gendered and sexual beings, and the way in which they function and are treat in both a society and culture accordingly.
Look at countries such as India which has an enormous amount of rapes occurring every day, many of them savage beyond comprehension. You think this is because Indian men are "naturally" more inclined to rape than Westerners? No, it's because they in a culture in which women are property first and foremost and human beings secondary.
The West was at a time like this too during the middle-ages, but we moved to stamp that attitude out and for the most part all that remains are the congenitally perverse. When people say "teach them not to rape" it means "stamp out the culture that promotes the attitude that your victims are objects".
>>92581>I'm a person that fears death, like all of us. Those that say they don't…
I fear certain ways of dying, but the concept of death itself seems very freeing and inevitable for everyone so I don't dwell on death itself much.
Like you said, there's a degree of dignity in choosing how you die as opposed to the fear and uncertainty of being doomed to excruciating pain in a slow death.
I fear suffering, mental anguish, and regret. Not death.
IMO a medically induced death by being rendered unconscious seems like the kindest and most painless way to die.
I'm fucking stoked for this honestly. I'm not afraid of death itself. So I cease existing, eh so what, I'll be dead and I won't have an opinion on the matter. The part I don't like is the suffering like you said. There's a trillion ways to die and I can probably count on my hands how many of those are quick and painless.
I've watched too many relatives in misery on their death beds and not only is it horrible for them, but it's horrible for the family and friends to watch someone they love go through that.
I'm not having kids, I have two family members left and they will likely die before me, so when the time comes I'm definitely ready to board that sweet euthanasia train.