File: 1441827802612.png (14.54 KB, 325x225, vegan.png)
No. 34658
>>34649I think its stupid to care so much about creatures like cows and chickens. Or think killing them is cruel yet baby animals in the wild get torn apart and eaten alive all the time? It's just how the world works and I think some people use being vegan as a way to feel superior. Kinda like neckbeard atheists.
I could care less about vegans who just mind their own business it's just the ones who act so self righteous are damn annoying and ignorant.
No. 34668
>>34662sure, and to some vegans you're a murderer if you eat something that could have possibly touched meat, but you can't really argue that the factories that the animals are kept in are pretty shitty, and the reason they are bred to that point is generally overconsumption of animal-derived products.
i am not a vegan (i'm op who wants to go vegan) but i don't necessarily see a problem with consuming eggs that were given to me by a friend who has pet chickens. but i do have a problem with eggs that came from a chicken farm where the animals were mistreated. likewise, i don't really see a problem with consuming an animal that died naturally (assuming there were no problems with the meat in the way of contamination) but do see a problem with consuming animals that were raised in shitty conditions and packed full of hormones in order to produce the most meat/milk/whatever. in fact, i think a lot of other people should care about that kind of thing even if they do eat meat.
if you don't really give a fuck about animals then whatever, i don't really care, but i'm just saying that this is the perspective of many people who choose to abstain from consuming animal products, not simply "you're killing cute animals!!"
it simply doesn't make sense to me to eat meat/dairy or at least eat as much meat and dairy products as we consume as a population.
No. 34699
>>34658>I think its stupid to care so much about creatures like cows and chickens. Or think killing them is cruel yet baby animals in the wild get torn apart and eaten alive all the time?Humans have the moral capacity to understand right and wrong. Animals are unable to do so.
For example, let's say you had 2 humans in a mental asylum, both with an IQ of around 35, who were violent and aggressive.
Say one stabbed and killed the other. Would he be held criminally culpable? No. He has no sense of ethics and doesn't know what he's doing. He will continue to be locked up in the asylum, but he won't be "punished" for his crime (beyond basic conditioning), because he doesn't know what it means to do wrong.
Animals are no different.
However, say you had an intelligent human who went out of their way to kill one of those 35-IQ people, for no real reason. Not in self-defense or anything; just for sport, and the thrill of it.
Is it as bad as them killing another intelligent, functional human? No. Is it still wrong? Yes. They would likely get life in prison.
No. 34709
Gonna let you guys in on a little secret about how the world works.
Almost every form of non-plant life has to kill something to keep itself alive. We are no different: in fact the human body works best with a mixture of meat and plant intake.
Would you rather spend your entire life in fear of being hunted down by predators, or assured of a safe and happy life up until a quick, clean, painless death?
>>34699But animals aren't retarded humans anon, lots of cattle will happily murder you if you get too close to them at the wrong time of year.
Plus
>killing violent retards for sport>killing animals for foodWorst analogy ever
No. 34713
>>34709>But animals aren't retarded humans anon, lots of cattle will happily murder you if you get too close to them at the wrong time of year.First off, even if that is true, going by the analogy the retarded humans might also kill you if you get too close to them.
Second, I don't think female cows are aggressive or would kill humans if they weren't disturbed, only the bulls might. It's irrelevant though. This isn't about killing in self-defense, it's for sport or for food.
>killing violent retards for sport>killing animals for foodI was really comparing hunting. I could've just as easily said "killing retards for food". They both work, if you assume humans taste good.
No. 34714
>>34709>But animals aren't retarded humans anon, lots of cattle will happily murder you if you get too close to them at the wrong time of year.First off, even if that is true, going by the analogy the retarded humans might also kill you if you get too close to them.
Second, I don't think female cows are aggressive or would kill humans if they weren't disturbed, only the bulls might. It's irrelevant though. This isn't about killing in self-defense, it's for sport or for food.
>killing violent retards for sport>killing animals for foodI was really comparing hunting. I could've just as easily said "killing retards for food". They both work, if you assume humans taste good.
No. 34718
>>34714Retarded humans not only don't have natural weapons or any physical advantage over you if it comes down to a fight, they're more likely to realise you're no threat.
Human flesh allegedly tastes like pork. I wouldn't test that theory out because
1. Holy shit you're eating another person and
2. Kuru will fuck up your brain
No. 34720
>>34718Again, the analogy assumes the humans are naturally aggressive, like many (though certainly not all) animals.
A crazy human also definitely has natural weapons. Biting, choking, etc. And even if they didn't, adding the condition that the retard humans magically have sharper teeth or whatever still doesn't really change things.
The whole point is that the fact that an animal might attack you doesn't mean it inherently deserves to die. They're not intelligent enough to be morally culpable. Fighting back in self-defense is justifiable, but this is about killing them for sport or for food.
But perhaps more importantly, do wild pigs and goats and sheep and salmon attack humans?
No. 34721
>>34720>a human's pretty pathetic teeth and trying to throttle someone are natural weapons in the same way horns and claws areHoly fuck this is some stupid. It's hard to kill someone with your bare hands, especially if they can fight back.
>muh morality! would pigs and goats attack humans?!1Yes. Holy fuck, yes they would. You do not fuck with pigs. An old pig farmer in Oregon was eaten by his own livestock, and in Norfolk there was a combined attack by pigs on a farmer where one knocked him over so the others could bite him.
And these are ones kept by people, so you'd expect them to be a bit more docile.
No. 34723
>>34721Sounds like they might've been mistreated or malnourished or something. I haven't heard of normal, healthy pigs randomly attacking their owners.
And anyway, even if you assume pigs are naturally aggressive, there's always going to be a pretty long list of docile herbivores we kill for food, even if you can eliminate a few off that list.
No. 34729
>>34723http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19796224Yes, because a guy who showed mercy when one of the pigs bit his brother and was going out to feed them when he got killed was mistreating or malnourishing his animals.
The point I'm trying to make is this hand-wringing and moralising is completely and totally fucking pointless.
We can choose not to eat meat, sure, but since that results in nutrient deficiencies and the rest of the animal kingdom does far, far worse (don't look up what those cute little dolphins do to porpoises, or what chimps do to smaller monkeys) it comes off as just a bit hypocritical and short-sighted. The phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face" comes to mind.
Plus there's the fact bacon is delicious.
No. 34731
>>34729Any vegan with a job can easily get the nutrients they need through vitamins and supplements. True, people in poorer countries can't, but that's a different problem.
And again, I maintain that even if some animals attack each other and humans, that doesn't make it inherently okay to kill any members of their species for any reason other than self-defense. They're too stupid to be held to ethics. (Most) humans are smart enough to be held to ethics.
No. 34834
>>34729hur durr BACON
You can get nutrients from sources other than meat. You don't need meat. That's a huge myth.
No. 34835
>>34743To be fair, I would argue that most people don't eat a balanced diet and are deficient in some nutrient or another. It's not specific to people who don't eat meat.
>>34833This is more or less what's important to me about veganism or at least lowering consumption of animal products. We eat too much and it's a huge waste. If everyone cut them out for one day a week there would be a huge difference.
>>34699You're embarrassing yourself…
No. 35030
File: 1441960006977.jpg (67.42 KB, 468x428, qt 3.14 jersey calf.jpg)
Maybe I'm just more exposed to the former but the people complaining about vegans are way more irritating than the vegans themselves. I hate when people dish out the "hurr durr humans are supposed to consume meat" appeal to nature argument. What they don't realize is cows produce a metric fuckton of greenhouse gas every year. Farms are a big part of the reason for climate change.
Personally I'd love to stop consuming animals if my own will was strong enough.
Eventually artificially grown meat will be affordable and tasty enough, and then we can all put our differences behind us.
No. 35080
>>35076To me Being vegetarian/vegan is a logical and humble choice. That's it.
Nothing comparable with extreme compassion, it's not an extreme or dangerous life style.
No. 35082
>>35070>genderbait and racebait all in one postPlease stop posting forever. Fuck off to /r9k/.
I almost wish robots would be forced to adopt IDs that stick from thread to thread so we'd know who to discriminate tbh
No. 35084
>>35070>Male here.Can you not? Your viewpoint isn't as interesting or unique as you think.
>I'd expect a female vegetarian to be understanding that most men prefer meat.What the fuck are you even trying to say
No. 35088
>>35082I'm actually not a robot.
>>35084>What the fuck are you even trying to sayIt's pretty explicit what I mean.
No. 35096
>>35090I dislike most of what /r9k/ believes in, don't hate women, don't believe in the notion of Chad/Beta dichotomies etc.
>>35092I'll explain again: I'd expect a female vegan not to proselytize to a man who obviously prefers meat, were they dating.
No. 35097
>>35094OR THE FACT THERE NOT IDIOTS
the vegan diet has 0 health benifits
humans are carnivores and need meet.
humans evolved to consume anime protien. thats why people are against it. its stupid
No. 35103
File: 1441979877871.jpg (8.73 KB, 200x201, serveimage.jpg)
>>35097You're the exact type of person I was talking about in
>>35030 No. 35122
>>35120No, it's a fucking instinct.
That most women don't even have btw. Some new mother don't even feel love toward their newborns for a few months.
No. 35123
File: 1441980643980.png (839.42 KB, 1159x1173, Myoglobin.png)
Uguu, don't forget your anime protein anons~!
No. 35125
>>35122A small minority of women do, and even then they do eventually.
Where's the proof "most" women don't have a maternal instinct?
By the way, not having one makes you less attractive to men.
No. 35144
File: 1441981470176.jpg (44.62 KB, 1024x578, mommy.jpg)
I didn't know guys with mommy issue existed
No. 35149
>>35137It ties into the broader concept of femininity.
>>35144There are no "mommy issues", it's a stupid attempt to create an analogous term to "daddy issues", which is a real, verifiable thing amongst a lot of young women.
No. 35154
>>35149>It ties into the broader concept of femininity.ROFLMAO
Do you want to suck the milk out of girl's titties? Do you want them to feed you, clean your ass and tell you to cover yourself cause it's cold outside? Dumbass.
No. 35163
>>35153Yeah, because women finding assertiveness attractive totally means they want to watch men butcher each other on battlefields too, since both are part of the same spectrum of aggressiveness.
>>35154No, but I don't want her describing children as "crotch rats", "parasites" and so on. I want to see her cooing over babies if it's a cute one. It's nice.
No. 35183
>>35149>there are no "mommy issues" Lelelellll are you retarded? Have you never gotten a single dose of reality and pop culture in your life?
Mommy issues have always existed, and are actually more dangerous than daddy issues since they so often breed sociopaths.
No. 35331
>>35163This thread is about veganism and it's pros and cons. Not what you find attractive or unattractive in women. We don't care about what you (and other men) find attractive! We didn't ask so don't tell, k?
Back on topic, I find videos like
>>34833 to be so much more helpful to understanding the pros of veganism (especially when the references/sources are named!) than someone preaching about how we shouldn't eat meat and how we're horrible people for eating meat/comparing us to Hitler etc. or trying to emotionally manipulate people into not eating meat by posting pictures of baby lambs frolicking in a field with pictures of house pets saying "You call me dinner, but you call me family". It also irks me that a lot of people in the vegan movement preach empathy for animals, but can't show 1% of that empathy towards other humans for making different lifestyle choices (e.g. even towards "meat-eaters" who can't go vegan due to health reasons).
No. 35333
File: 1442055568112.png (5.74 KB, 1224x59, Screen Shot 2015-09-12 at 22.5…)
I guess yet another person finally understands what it's like being a female on /r9k/.
No. 43719
>>43718It's more like they try their best to be vegan, even if it's usually not possible to be 100% vegan at all times.
That's like saying you can't be a non-drinker because some bread and sauces have a bit of alcohol mixed in.
No. 45116
>>45090Honestly just look at how the demand for meat alternatives has gone up. I remember going vegetarian in my bumfuck country town in high school, so like 2004, and there was basically some tofu, soy milk, and a few veggie burgers in the freezer at the nicest grocery store. Ten years later and there are countless dairy-free options for ice creams etc, almond milk is pretty normally consumed by people who otherwise eat meat, coconut milk, rice milk, cashew milk, meatless chicken, burgers, frozen meals, and a decent selection of tofu, seitan, and dairy free cheese slices at a grocery store like Wal-Mart or Winn-Dixie. Demand for animal products has gone down slightly, and people other than vegetarians and vegans are starting to consume less meat and more vegan products. I think people are realizing it's simply not healthy to consume as much dairy and meat as we (speaking as an American) do on a regular basis.
No. 45159
>>45156Vegetarians don't eat meat, vegans don't eat any animal products, including eggs and milk-derived products as well as other things like gelatin or carmine (a red food coloring often made from insects).
A lot of vegetarians also don't consume eggs or gelatin but do consume dairy products. The main difference is that vegetarians tend to be kind of flexible on animal-derived products that are not meat.
No. 45171
>>45162Vegetarian means they consume dairy products, like eggs, milk, and cheese, as well as other things produced by animals, like honey. Vegans don't eat those.
So, all vegetarians consume eggs, by definition.
No. 45238
>>45224Not a vegan here, but planning to become one. I would certainly eat eggs that were produced by hens that were kept as pets or lived normal lives. Actually, quite a few vegans do (Alicia Silverstone, Ellen and Portia have admitted to eating eggs from friends' hens). The main reason vegans avoid eggs is because the industry that produces mainstream eggs means the chickens are kept in bad conditions and fed a poor diet.
If you have ever had an egg from a happy hen, you'd never want to eat supermarket eggs again anyway. I thought I didn't like eggs much until I had one.
No. 45247
>>45240It's just a lifestyle don't take things so seriously.
>>45238actually vegans don't consume eggs mainly because the egg industry kill all the male chicks by being thrown in a dumpster and left to die, tossed in garbage bags and suffocated, or more commonly, by being ground up alive in meat grinders.
No. 45249
>>45247I mean, I would consider grinding up chicks "bad conditions."
>>45240OK. Some people just don't feel comfortable eating any part of an animal, and I think it's totally acceptable for people to decide what they want to put or not put into their bodies. Not sure why you're so bothered.
No. 45288
File: 1446676288624.jpg (28.46 KB, 390x294, ComparingEggs-390x294.jpg)
>>45264Seriously. Whether or not you care about animal cruelty, you can't deny that animals raised in better conditions generally produce VISIBLY better eggs, meat, milk…everything.
No. 45289
>>45288i only care about animal cruelty in the sense that i dont want the animals to suffer before they are killed. like no inhumane conditions so i eat organic/free range milk, eggs, and meats. everything else i dont really care about food wise.
but I also agree,100%. insterestingly, when my mom got cancer, the doctors told her it was enviromental and to stop drinking milk with hormones or meat with hormones (and eat organic instead). I will continue to eat like this as I think it must be 'safer' (not like you are going to die right away from eating non organic meats or anything) but i cant imagine all of those hormones being good for our bodies (especially for children growing)
No. 191105
>>191067It made me think and convinced me to go vegan. However it exaggerates some things, so you should check some things before quoting them to other people if you plan on doing that. Mic the Vegan made a video about it on Youtube.
Other than that it's quite entertaining and well made in my opinion, the makers are doing a new documentary called Wheat the Health iirc, I can't wait to see that.
I think it's good to try to make people open up about veganism. I want to try making my parents watch it eventually.
>>191098Cowspiracy is just facts about the industry. I mean, my (vegetarian) boyfriend did tear up a bit at the end because it reminds you the world is in a bad state, but it's not like Earthlings, there's zero gory scenes.
No. 191115
>>191102I care deeply about animals and seeing their conditions would mentally fuck me up all over again. I thought that was pretty obvious.
>>191105Oh well if that's the case, I'd consider watching it! Thanks, anon.
No. 191129
>>191127If you're going vegan for environmental reasons, would you also consider going zero waste (or at least plastic-free)? It's actually not as hard as it sounds, and it saves you money in the long run. Makeup is very hard to replace though, I'm still struggling there.
>>34649I wanted to go vegan at first but I'm anaemic and a picky eater so I decided not to. There's no telling the havoc it would wreak on my body. I only eat certain types of fish, game and poultry, some dairy, honey and eggs now. I hunt my own rabbits which is nice (and I know they're killed humanely and the whole animal is used up). Also, in my country hunting and nature preservation laws are way stricter than farming and food safety laws, which is kinda sad when you think about it. A lot of vegetables we used to grow ourselves are now imported from China and they try really hard to shill pesticides and fertilisers with dubious ingredients to local farmers so we've made our own organic trading website. It's pretty neat, it's like an Etsy for farmers. Most of them are really friendly too and the platform encourages creating long-lasting relationships (so if you're their regular customer they won't try to screw you over). I'm kind of proud of that, amidst this desolate fuckhole.
No. 191141
>>191129That organic trading website sounds neat. I think it's also more important that people are just aware of what they're consuming and reducing the amount of animal products makes a big difference. So yeah, your health is important. But I don't really think there's a humane way of killing animals, to be honest–I think hunting is better (and often necessary), but still not humane.
I've lived plastic-free for a while but since I became so busy with Uni I feel like it became impossible again. I think it's really about how much time you can spend on DIY's, cooking, shopping etc.
No. 191143
can we share our favorite vegan recipes?
i recently made a half portion of the recipe in the gif (-peppers -kidney beans -half of the oil +cumin) and it was really yummy!
https://i.imgur.com/nBOHEOP.gifv (the file format wasn't recognized)
No. 191160
>>191159Yeah, it bugs the shit out of a lot of us I think. I always thoroughly check out recipes to see what the garbage content is of them before I even consider making it. I think it comes with the territory that fruit and vegetables = healthy, therefore, you can eat boatloads of the stuff and it wont do anything bad.
A couple who are friends with my bf are like this. All they eat is processed vegan/vegetarian foods and think it's some sort of wizardry that we spend an hr out of the day to cook something that isn't full of sugar, fats and weird chemicals to make things taste like meat.
No. 191276
>>34649I understand veganism/vegetarianism to an extent
I understand not eating meat and I understand boycotting industries that do treat animals like shit, but I dont understand how people take veganism so far as to not eat honey or eggs, which both won't hurt the animal at all to get
No. 191290
>>191276Industrial production of eggs and honey are hurtful. If you really want to eat eggs for some reason, imo backyard hens are fine but other than that the industry is pretty bad. For honey just buy from small local producers.
The all of nothing mentality is pretty harmful though and makes a lot of people give up just because they don't see themselves giving up one product and so they feel like they'll never be accepted and it's all useless. I kinda feel like a doormat when I say that but even reducing your meat consumption a little bit is a great help.
No. 191294
>>191144>rice, carrots, potatoes and peaslolwat
Those aren't even that rich in fiber.
Juicing vegetables gets rid of the fiber (freezing too but you probably wouldn't want that).
No. 191301
>>191276AFAIK honey production usually involves killing the queen every 2 years so the colony will choose a new one. I personally am not too bothered by it though.
>eggs>won't hurt the animal at all to getlol assuming you're referring to organic free range eggs, what do you think they do with the hen after it's productivity drops? What do you think they do with the male chicks?
No. 191302
>>191143To make or to eat?
Favorite one to make would probably be any vegetable stir fry I can throw together; favorite one to eat would probably be something from the serious eats vegan experience section.
No. 191350
>>191339Same. I definitely want to cut out all milk and eggs, I'll keep honey though since my boyfriend does beekeeping.
I moved in a dorm and been cooking only vegan meals (except the occasional grocery mistake when there's dairy in a sauce or whatnot) but with sweets or eating out I haven't had the willpower to eat vegan. Especially living in Japan everything sweet seems to have milk or eggs, and I can't afford special vegan shops. So I'm looking forward to going home to get more options, but since I'll be back with my parents I'd eat dairy and eggs in quiche or gratins etc…
I just can't wait to move in with my boyfriend and have a nice little (mostly) vegan diet together, only going out to places with vegan options and cooking together.
But yeah I could just not eat sweet stuff or processed food at all and not go to restaurants but I'm weak.
No. 191353
File: 1495297942603.jpg (66.66 KB, 500x350, 50857-94740-94741-almond-bever…)
>>191350Almond milk is a great way to start. Get the unsweetened one from Trader Joe's (pink label on carton, middle in pic), it is less expensive than milk and tastes almost identical. Perfect in cereal, smoothies, tea/hot cocoa, whatever milk replacement you need. I switched to it and never looked back. The sweetened ones are a little strange imo and I think most people have sweet almond milk as their first experience which is why they don't like it.
I am still struggling with eggs, I try to buy ones from farms with good ethical practices. Farmer's markets or friends/coworkers with chickens are great for that too.
Also the vegan marshmallows at trader joe's are AMAZING. They taste better than regular marshmallows.
No. 191405
>>191353>and tastes almost identicalCan we not say shit like this? I love almond milk but it absolute does
not taste almost identical to milk, not to mention almond milk is usually less popular in terms of flavor compared to soy and rice milk etc. It's exaggeration like this that makes people think vegans are nutjobs
No. 191408
>>191336Go on and freeze an orange and see how you like that.
>>191328I've read your post multiple times and I stand by what I said.
No. 191413
>>191405So someone pays the price of one carton of almond milk to discover it tastes a little different. OH THE HORROR, WE MUST SPARE PEOPLE FROM THAT PAIN!
Calm down, the only nutjob is you.
No. 191418
>>191405But have you tried the specific one I mentioned? It really does taste almost the same as milk. All it's missing is that milk after taste.
I even use it when making waffles/pancakes too. It's amazing.
No. 191431
>>191415I honestly don't know where you people get your recipes from claiming there's so much sugar and fat. If there is, just reduce the amount of your liking. Not an issue. Do you cook every single meal with a recipe? Kek.
>>191415And I agree with
>>191408, especially when you look at traditional western non-vegan cuisine in comparison.
No. 191449
>>191413>a little differentMost almond milk tastes nothing like cow's milk.
My point is that some people jump on shit like this to convince others that veganism is baseless as a whole. If we exaggerate and falsify things so that they are in our favor then even less people will take veganism seriously. You can take that strawman and shove it back up your ass.
>>191418Oh, fair enough. I'll concede then.
>tfw there are only two different brands of almond milk in my country No. 191453
>>191445Just lazy most of the time, and even when I do take the time to check everything I usually can't find a single vegan option here, and I don't want to bike 15 minutes through the city to go to another supermarket where I'm not even sure I'll find vegan stuff.
Excuses, excuses, I should just get my shit together and stop being needy. Alright I'll try harder.
No. 191583
>>191517As someone who drinks unsweetened almond milk so I don't gain weight drinking cow milk, this is wrong.
Wish the stuff wasn't so fattening so I could drink it all the time.
No. 191602
A great new way to hide your eating disorder AND deflect any criticisms with a healthy first world privelage to deny food for moral reasons.
"When I was in recovery from Anorexia, I struggled a lot with restrictive diets. My eating disorder-addled brain told me that being vegan was the correct solution for me, because if I did so, I would have a viable excuse to restrict food. For an eating disorder, being vegan is the next best thing to complete starvation. Here’s why:
Being vegan is socially acceptable. It might even be considered a superiorly healthy way of eating by some people. Eating disorders can hide behind it.
When offered any sort of food, being vegan gave me a convenient excuse not to eat it. For example, when one is offered chicken satay hors d’oeuvres at a drinks party, it is much easier to say, “No thank you, I can’t eat those because I am vegan,” than it is to say: “No thank you, I can’t eat that because the thought of eating anything other than carrot sticks causes me so much stress that I start to shake.”
Being vegan gave me a reason to take my own food with me everywhere—other peoples houses should we be asked over for dinner etc. Another facet of Anorexia is not trusting food made by other people.
Being vegan gave me an excuse not to eat out.
Being vegan gave me an excuse not to eat saturated fat. This is a big one. In my case, my body—especially my organs and namely my reproductive system—needed saturated fat to recover and get to optimal health. I did not get my periods back until I had been weight restored and had been eating a full diet with saturated fats in for over a year.
Being vegan allowed me to obsess over food, meticulously read food labels, and think about food and being vegan all the time. (This is an eating disorder behaviour)
Being vegan allowed me to find other people who were vegan and indulge in talking about food with them—while never actually eating of course. (Talking and thinking about food obsessively and not eating it are eating disorder behaviours.)
Even for those of us who make a full recovery from them, eating disorders exist in the brain like the minatory spectator awaiting any opportunity to make a comeback."
(
http://tabithafarrar.com/2015/12/veganism-and-eating-disorders-lets-be-frank/)
What do you think Farmers? For every 1 Vegan I know who maintains a healthy weight I can think of 3 who all previously had an eating disorder, personally.
No. 191606
>>191602I agree tbh. As much as I support animal rights blah blah I'm sure as hell not going to starve myself for the sake of the planet. I'd never say that to a vegan though, they're sad enough people as is.
I don't eat pork (too greasy) and I mostly stay away from beef, but denying yourself ALL meat, and eggs, and honey, and fuck knows what else is just… nah.
No. 191621
>>191620Not sure what you're asking me here. If they're fat positive doesn't that imply they're not starving themselves, and so they're not being vegan to lose weight? Which is exactly what I'm saying, that there are other reasons to go vegan that just health or weight loss.
Also regardless of the number of vegan people who do have an eating disorder (because they exist, I don't deny it), the ethical and environmental reasons to be vegan still exist.
No. 191677
>>191647>>191649Yeah, I didn't throw my old leather stuff out and don't see why. The harm is already done. At one point it felt weird wearing them though and now I don't own anything anymore. But I wouldn't tell people to throw it out, and great for you
>>191649 basically telling people that veganism is only for people that have money.
>>191635Plant-based is a better word. Vegetarian would imply still eating animal products.
I generally wish more people would say plant-based if it's just for food or other stuff. But it doesn't really matter in the end, I guess.
No. 191897
>>191886Both? 'Lmao'.
There's more than one way to be unhealthy.
No. 191910
>>191886A lot of people have this misconception that vegans just sit around eating leaves and that's thanks to people with eating disorders like orthorexia and people who eat vegan as a fad diet.
The other anon is baiting, vegans don't starve themselves (I've certainly never seen anyone starving when eating carbs). But vegans can be just as unhealthy as non-vegans sometimes. Technically oreos are vegan but it doesn't make then a health food. Unfortunately, a lot of trendy American recipes feature a lot of sugar, fat and oil because that's what Americans are used to eating when non-vegan anyway. The rest of the world doesn't eat that way and if they did once they became vegan (thinking it's normal vegan food), they'd gain a lot of weight.
No. 229048
File: 1518692089064.png (125.65 KB, 496x1390, Sans titre.png)
>>229043I don't have a lot of knowledge about animal psychology, but the thing is, if someone put their fingers in a dog's vagina they could be condemned. The dog doesn't not necessarily suffer from it but it's considered a sexual abuse. In which case why not give the same treatment for cows or pigs?
Not sure I'm explaining this well, but Vegan Sidekick made two posts about it and I think they seem reasonable (although I wouldn't go around calling it sexual abuse bc I know it just brings more trouble than help), pic related.
Also responding to stuff you said in
>>228979Cows get mastitis if they don't get milked, but I've read dairy cows were bred to produce much more milk than they used to, so we are to blame for it. Also, if they didn't get inseminated in the first place, they wouldn't be lactating as much (or at all? Again I don't know much, but I think I've read dairy cows lactate even if they've never been pregnant… please correct me)
So as I see it, while milking them is an immediate solution that benefits their health, it would be better if we had no dairy cows at all… That is, taking into account how damaging raising cattle is to the environment, and the fact the dairy industry directly contributes to the meat industry (with male calves and retiring dairy cows).
It's just like Orylag Rabbits, they are a lab-created species specially for fur and are completely dependent on antibiotics, with very weak bodies and absolutely no social behavior because they are always isolated in cages. Due to this, when people tried to rescue some, they were absolutely not able to live normal rabbit lives. Would it be better to just keep breeding them and killing them at a young age? No, I'd rather they stop making Frankenstein's monster-like rabbits into the world. Same thing with dairy cows.
Also regarding a bit of a sentence
>an animal that will 100% die without the care of farmersIsn't the animal 100% going to die at a young age compared to its life expectancy even under the farmer's care ?
Unless you let male calves live their life on the side and allow cows to peacefully retire, they will be sent to a slaughterhouse and won't die from natural causes.
I'm interested in your replies, please don't take this as an attack. I'm glad that you find happiness in your job. Not sure my points are clear, sorry if I sound weird.
No. 229056
>>229048I’m the vegan/rape victim in the other thread and I think your pic related makes the points succinctly. Inserting anything into an animal’s sexual organs for your own benefit - sexual or financial - is abuse, whether people like it or not. Is it as serious as abuse suffered by humans? No, because like other anon said, they cannot conceptualise it the way we do. Does it still matter? Absolutely. Because he’s right - a human baby couldn’t conceptualise what had happened to them if they were abused, but it is still abhorrent and still 100% matters.
As for your points regarding milking and mastitis/insemination, you’re correct. No, dairy cows have to have been pregnant to lactate, just like any other mammal.
Sheep have also been bred to grow excessive amounts of wool, meaning they would die if they weren’t shorn. If we stopped dairy farming and using wool, eventually these animals bred specifically for agriculture that couldn’t survive without human intervention would die out and the equilibrium would rebalance.
It’s a hard subject to debate with farmers because no one likes to be called a murdered or a rapist or feel that they are complicit in animal abuse. But it is a matter of perspective, and I personally can’t understand how you could happily utilise an animal’s body for your own profit or pleasure…
No. 229077
>>229074I don't think it is the same. I think animal agriculture is a form of slavery, and forced artificial insemination is sexual abuse. Of course the struggle is different from what victims of things you mentionned experience, but just because you call forced artificial insemination abuse it doesn't make light of other atrocities.
I get the feeling you're just offended we're using similar terms than the one used for humans, but there's no reason to be. Just because I call an animal being sent to the slaughterhouse a murder, it doesn't mean I don't think someone shooting someone else in the head isn't a murder.
Also, the original post in the vent thread was about a vegan actually comparing sex slaves etc to what cows go through, but I don't agree with it and even less with the idea that saying this kind of things would help veganism.
Lastly, no one is asking anything from womens rights organizations except maybe some folks who lost their brakes on the intersectionality train I guess.
No. 229081
>>229078Omfg. Human women and animal women. That's incredible
So I guess fuck all the male animals who get killed right? They are probably taking part in the patriarchy anyway
No. 229084
>>229078I hear you anon. That person is dumb as fuck and your vent was understandable.
But I'm not arguing that she was right, the purpose of continuing the discussion is more related to the other points made in the thread by people defending the industry, and arguing that yes, forced insemination is sexual abuse even when done on an animal, but that doesn't mean we demean rape victims and think humans should matter less than animals. The person who said that is a bad vegan activist and probably a shitty person.
No. 229091
>>229073>>229084can peta leave?
forced insemination is done for species preservation as well. and by the way, animals literally
rape eachother to mate. animals do not experience psychological trauma from that kind of thing because it happens naturally.
No. 229092
>>229091But we are not talking about species preservation, are we? The majority of forced insemination are done in order to get milk out of the mother and steal her baby from her to have it killed and eaten.
>animal rape each otherThey don't have the same intellectual capacities as us, therefore we can't base our ethical values on their way of living.
You know animals kill and eat their babies if they feel like it? Should we do that?
>They do not experience psychological trauma because it happens naturallyWe don't know about that. Some animal biologist observed that cows and veal appeared to be distressed by their separation. The veal will cry and beg for it's mother and will sometimes refuse to eat the cow stress level will rise for a few days.
Animals do have an emotional life, it's been observed. For example cows living in isolation will perform worse in a cognitive test than the ones living in groups.
No. 229096
>>229091Animals don't have morals. You're using the exact same argument as people who say we should eat meat bc lions do. We have the choice to not put stuff in animals' genitals so we should not do it unless it is needed for their health.
In the case of species preservations it's different if it's absolutely necessary, but even for pandas they're not doing it. We don't fucking need the number of cows and pigs we have on Earth, the argument does not apply here.
Also can we stop with the "yeah I'm not like OTHER VEGANS who want to have DEBATES and DEFEND THEIR OPINIONS! I love meat eaters and there is absolutely no way their decision not to change their habits might be due to ignorance or flawed reasoning, so it would be useless to try to discuss this at all!" shit?
It's always interesting to try to understand each other's point of view, be it as vegans with different opinions or between vegans and meat eaters.
No. 229119
File: 1518726895961.jpg (91.67 KB, 960x960, 26230798_1630429560384827_6602…)
>>229118When I try to respond to posts like "you're deluded thinking killing animals is wrong, for some reason" I never know where to start, but in the end these people are just completely closed to any discussion so why try.
I guess this is the kind of moment when a smug VS comic is appropriate lol.
No. 229121
>>229119Only, no one ever asks vegans to explain themselves. Vegans are the ones actively trying to convert others, like religion. Being vegan is part of a moral movement, so it's prone to these delusions of grandeur and the idea of persecution. No one cares if you're vegan, but people do care when you assert that
they should stop eating meat too.
No. 229123
>>229121Vegans are not a monolithic entity, just because you've met a shitty vegan one days doesn't mean most of them are delusional or on their high horse.
And tbh it seems like you take all of this very personal and like you are very bitter.
No. 229126
File: 1518727949771.jpg (149.35 KB, 960x960, 25289651_1600805246680592_3676…)
>>229121Well, I don't know if you've frequented a lot of vegans but I have been asked questions and explanations before. They were often followed by polite discussions, of course the comic is a bit exaggerated but we do get asked to justify our actions. Especially in family dinner settings actually. So yeah people do ask about it, which is a good thing since it gives space to try to explain. It's hard to understand for some people (like people who don't have access to all the food they want, or people who are really into traditions like turkey at Christmas etc)
If no vegan/vegetarian was subject to such inquiries in your surroundings then good for them honestly!
Some vegans do get preachy but it's a topic that's close to heart to many, so that's part of the reason I guess. I wish it wasn't so easy to turn people off.
No. 229129
>>229121The reason people care when you assert they should stop eating meat is usually because vegans/vegetarians have some well rounded arguments and can deflate almost every argument a meat eater throw at them. (oh but vegetables suffers too! Lion eat meat! but a cow needs to be milked, yada yada.)
For most people the idea of changing their eating habit is very uncomfortable, so they try to defend at all cost their way of living only for all of their point to be refuted one by one. I can understand how frustrating that must be, some vegans / vegetarian are also very preachy and in a way ruthless.
I think the best way of converting more people to a plant based diet is by having compassionate and understanding conversations and leading by example.
No. 229132
>>229129You're
>>229127 again aren't you. Just quit while you're ahead. And no I'm not some meany meat eater trying to shut down discussion, you are just not well informed at all and are bringing the discussion down.
No. 229134
>>229128Well, regarding morals and choices, the issue is that this choice involves victims. Can you call it a personal choice, when taking the decision of consuming animal product directly harms animals? Something to think about.
But you're absolutely right though, people are quick to think you're judging them harshly but most vegans were not born that way either, they understand people might not have all the information, or don't realize it's not as difficult as they think, or they don't realize that reducing their consumption would have a really positive impact.
Speaking of lab-grown meat, I really hope it develops well and quick. I personally don't think I'd consume it but I hope they'll use it to make pet food in a ""vegan"" way.
No. 229136
>>229131When I say
"For most people the idea of changing their eating habit is very uncomfortable"
Is the same as "challenging someone's way of life."
So we actually agree on that.
Obviously I think my belief are the right ones just like everyone I don't think it's arrogance. People getting angry of having a strong rejection to new ideas is NORMAL, but I've happily seen many people who strongly rejected my ideas deciding to reduce their meat consumptions or becoming vegetarians. That's why I think they get angry at first and then accept the fact that's it can be an interesting and more ethical life choice.
Anyways I believe our society is going towards a more compassionate way of living and people are going to eat less and less animals products.
No. 229138
>>229134I don't know if it's the victims aspect that's important, but more that people often outright refuse to see their impact on other beings in general, let alone see them as victims. This persists with other humans too.
If you're going by victims, do you yourself consider people in the meat industry to be important? Not the bigwigs, but the people who's jobs and way of life will be lost when the industry crumbles? Not saying you need to necessarily, think of that, just using it as a counterexample. Most choices one makes aren't without a "victim" even in a figurative sense, and people don't think about human "victims" or even view them as such so of course they will not put animals in that position, especially as literal victims. To them, their choices don't affect anyone (but everyone else's choices sure as hell affect them).
I think that not eating meat is fine, and I do think it is the "right' thing to do. But I also think you can justify why you specifically eat meat with sound reasoning and acknowledgement that it is in fact wrong, because it is wrong. Just like it's wrong to think that pets are somehow on a higher rung than animals, and that humans are somehow on a higher rung than pets. It's wrong in the same way that humans do most everything else, they believe the world and all it's resources are for them to use and exploit. And while I don't feel animals are mine to exploit, I know I am privileged to allow myself to endulge in exploitation.
Hope that makes sense…
No. 229139
>>229136Right, but my point is that people don't get mad rationally when you tell them
anything against their beliefs, so it really has nothing to do with right and wrong. It's arrogant to think that you're point of view has anything to do with defensiveness.
No. 229151
>>229138Yeah of course, if you don't look at the consequences your actions have on other beings then you don't feel like you're doing any victims. It's difficult to convince people to do that, but if you have someone who understands the consequences then it's more interesting to discuss I think.
>do you yourself consider people in the meat industry to be importantYeah, definitely. People who work in slaughterhouses, often because they have no other choice, have awful working conditions and I'd rather nobody had to do this kind of job. It's also difficult for farmers, because a lot of the time they were born and brought up in this field (hah), learning from their parents, and passing it on to their children. And they're really not paid a lot either, getting fucked by the big companies they supply and needing government subsidies to be able to survive.
Ideally, all these people should be able to reconvert as the demand for animal products decreases (supposing it does decrease of course). It probably won't be this easy.
A more aggressive approach would be saying: "do you think we should have kept practicing slavery because slave traders couldn't afford to lose their jobs" but that's a bit abrasive haha.
Of course you can never act perfectly, most actions have victims. Eating fully plant based might make less animal victims than a "normal" diet, but if you eat fruit exported from the other side of the world on a regular basis then you're still hurting the planet and thus people and animals living on it.
However, that thinking should not, imo, detract from trying to do the best we can to reduce suffering. So, if your way of reducing suffering is by not wearing any fur, leather, or wool, but you still eat meat, then it's better than nothing at all. If you eat less meat, and well sourced, it's better than making no effort, for sure. If you have the possibility to go vegan, that would reduce animal exploitation more.
And, it's important to think about human victims as well - buying ethically made and sourced clothing for example. But since it's possible to buy ethically sourced clothing made with no animal products in them, why not go the extra mile? (And there's an answer to that, because it's not as easy to find and can be more expensive, but you get my point)
That's actually an argument a lot of people use "vegans defend animals, but what about HUMANS?" but there's no reason we can't try to do the best we can for all species.
Not sure I understand your last paragraph. But before I went vegetarian and then vegan, I did think like that. I though, being vegan would be better, but I can't be bothered. In the end I went vegetarian because I mentioned I was sorta interested to my mom and I felt judged when she saw me eating meat lol. It's not a necessarily good reason, but I did believe it was the right thing to do so I don't regret it.
But I don't really see what you mean by sound reasoning arguing for eating meat even though you know it's wrong, could you give an example? Again I'm not sure I grasp what you mean fully, but it's a bit late and I'm sleepy so that might have to do with it haha.
Oh and I find it interesting you consider it's a privilege to eat meat, most people would consider going vegan something for privileged people since it can be expensive and time consuming.
No. 229162
>>229048Considering cows have been bred to produce more milk, the only solution to shutting down dairy farming is to kill all the cows or allow entire herds to die screaming in agony as the infection spreads from the udder and the animals succumb to sepsis.
The least cruel option is to slowly move from mass farming into local homesteaders producing enough to produce milk, butter, cheese, yogurt etc for themselves and a bunch of neighbours.Herds under 100 would be great.
Same deal for other livestock.
There’s huge economic, cultural, and social changes involved in doing this and calling the people who have moved into sustainable and cruelty free homesteading rapists and murderers is making vegans as a group look just as irrational as the asshole who says ‘mmmmmm bacon yum yum I’m gonna eat twenty steaks to piss you off’ to you at every opportunity.
Y’all should probably learn about artificial insemination for cows though. You might think I’m raping her but I’m doing it so she won’t potentially get her legs broken by a bull mounting. This is largely due to bulls being bred to be incredibly huge, but again, our generation can’t change the fact that we fucked animals up, only try to change and prevent further damage.
Animals who have heat cycles or breeding seasons get distressed by lack of pregnancy.
No. 229165
>>229162Samefag, our bulls went to fresian studs or sold for shows. We had a few old show boys and they were ancient, they just hung around in their paddocks occasionally staunching the ATV. Female calves were raised to be milked, we kept a group of heifers too young to calf yet and a pen of wee babies who were milkfed until they ate grass/hay. The only animals killed there were a bull who snapped his leg because you can’t treat it, and a couple of calves born with deformities or who never stood up. Those calves would have starved if we didn’t shoot them and the bull would have taken about a day to die naturally.
Our hens have never met a rooster so there’s no chicks to be killed. Sheep around here are all wool sheep so they’re basically fat babies. (I know there was a popular image floating around of a sheep all cut up and said to be the norm for shearing but it’s not. Nicks mean potential infection which means potentially dead or expensive vet treatments-no farmer wants to lose one)
No. 229219
>>229137Not saying what you’re saying isn’t true, but I’m vegan and I’ve never met a vegan IRL that’s like you describe! I’ve seen them online but they seem like dicks - there’s a difference between just being honest about your views of a process (ie meat is murder) and actually going off at someone that they’re a murderer of baby cows?! @vegainstrength on IG does lots of informative posts but he’s really strict on encouraging people to do what they can rather than alienating them.
>>229151Your points are good, but it’s not like farmers couldn’t adapt. If we didn’t have acres of land being used to raise animals we could be growing crops, and if the whole world ate a wide of variety of them there wouldn’t be a competition market (like there currently is with meat/dairy and their vegan alternatives). It could even potentially mean that they are financially more secure. I understand that people see veganism as a direct challenge to their way of life and their family’s future, and that’s scary. People need to be sensitive to this, because veganism isn’t valuing animals over humans, it’s valuing them equally and doing as little harm as possible to anyone.
Going plant based vegan is actually very cheap, although it can be time consuming. The very poor areas of the world live on mostly vegan diets because rice and beans are in abundance and are easy to store and cook. Meat is a luxury, especially the way the West eats it. (And as a side note to that, large meat producers are buying land in poor countries to grow grain for animals in the West while the people of that country starve…)
>>229162This was an interesting perspective to read, thank you. I think there are many vegans who - while they maybe wouldn’t partake in it personally - would have less problem with small homesteads over the mass produced animal products we have now. I personally will never be okay with the idea of eating meat, especially when we have so many alternatives, but I can accept arguments for cruelty-free dairy and eggs. Homesteads would mean hugely reducing the amount of animal products people consume, however, and I think many wouldn’t do it because they do genuinely care more about being able to have a McMuffin for breakfast. That’s what makes me (as a vegan) sad and angry about humans.
No. 229221
>>229219Farmer anon again,
I’ll probably be a staunch meat eater all my life, but I absolutely agree with vegans and vegetarians that large scale farming is often disgusting in how uneccessarily cruel it is and needs to change. We love our animals here (we even broke the cardinal rule and named them) and that’s how I think farming should be. When you’ve only got a few cows it’s easy to devote the time needed to nurse one sickly bull-calf. If you only keep as many hens as you need for eggs, there’s no male chicks to worry about.
Tbh I’m also really interested in a move to sustainably and ethically farming animals other than cows and sheep as meat sources (Australian, cows are ruining the literal countryside because hooves) animals such as kangaroos, which can and do overpopulate themselves into starvation every few years and restoring cattle paddocks for food crops. In the south east especially it could be really good because there’s so much land too steep for cows or crops but a mob of roos would thrive on it.
People here should also really reevaluate eating rabbit because they’re a godawful pest and starve out the native fauna.
It’s mental for people on my side of the fence to act like cattle aren’t fucking terrible for the planet and to say that the current state of factory farming is okay. There’s viable alternatives like homesteading and labgrown meat or at least getting your eggs and shit at the local market or road stand instead of from a battery hen farm.
No. 229223
>>229219But there is no need for vegans to talk about how they view meat as murder, everyone already knows that. Thats one of the reasons for why people find vegans to be so annoying, they assume others are ignorant and that its their job to educate them. We know you view meat as murder (which is dumb, murder is unlawful killing, slaughter isn't unlawful so it is just killing. It doesn't mean animals are below humans, it just means it isn't against the law. Same as how execution isn't murder, even if it is killing a human, because they have been lawfully sentenced to death.)
We know that meat comes from slaughterhouses, we know that most of them aren't ethical (not the same dilemma where I'm from though as in the us, as there are strict regulations), we know the global impact, we know how vegans view meat. Thats why it comes of preachy, because we all ready know.
Hell, I've cut out almost all of my meat consumption, so I am obviously aware of all the issues. Yet when I say that, I still get told the same things over and over again.
No. 229291
>>229256the
murders that happened during the holocaust were never legal, you idiot.
No. 229310
>>229307my personal opinion on it is that vegans tend to hate other "opressive" aspects of modern society and therefore apply the same ethics to everything. i feel like going full vegan is definitely just a choice of morality sympathizing the death of animals, but in a way that both shames humans for ingenuity and puts them on a pedestal. i'm a barbaric meat eater, because i'm a shit cynic and i don't really care about morals, and don't view human or animal lives as important.
vegans always say humans are smart enough to know better, but we're really no, we just have ingenuity.
No. 229330
>>229322There’s a difference imo between respecting an animal and respecting a human. An animal like a cow or duck or sheep is literally not capable of understanding the concept of respect. I respect that my cats need meat, that my calves need to be kept desperately from my dogs so they aren’t herded all day, I respect the fact that my chickens had to be specially introduced to a new hen..but what else am I supposed to respect?
I’ve never tortured an animal, never used one for sexual gratification or to feel powerful. I’ve never killed an animal just because I can.
I don’t really believe all humans have an inherent right to life so I certainly don’t think animals have a right to life. A right to not be abused, absolutely, but nothing has a real right to live. I’m not saying I’m right you’re wrong so there, I just don’t understand what else I’m supposed to think here
No. 229331
>>229310I’m largely in the same camp anon.
Another question for vegan anons, what are your feelings on humane euthanasia? Is that a greyer area because it’s medical and there’s obviously very conflicting values there.
What do you guys think of lab-grown meat? Would those of you who are vegan strictly because of personal ethics consider it?
I think it’s an interesting solution to factory farming but a lot of meat eaters will struggle with the idea cause it does sound a little ick but then again those guys have likely never butchered either which is also ick.
No. 229333
>>229307The bee argument has always thrown me off because bees won't produce much excess unless they are well taken care of. Also, pesticides used on flowering crops (e.g. soy) are believed to be contributing to CCD.
It's easy to look up local beekeepers and make sure the bees aren't being mistreated, and supporting responsible beekepers is good for the bee population.
sage for ot/blog
No. 229349
>>229307There is no compelling argument as to why animaly are equal to humans because they aren't. However, they are sentient (most) and can experience emotions and pain, so suffering inflicted on them is the same suffering humans experience. And you agree that animals have a right to not be abused, but why do you not grant a right to live? Is killing not an extreme form of abuse?
To me, a right to live means to not have my life ended against my will unless I endanger others. Do you have a different definition to that or is that yours too? If you agree with this definition, could you explain why you think people don't have a right to live/people do have a right to kill?
>>229331I don't know too much about meat from labs, but if less animals have to die, then I am all for it. I might try it, but meat is not high on the list of things I miss. It actually sounds very un-ick, because labs are nicely clean and sterile in my head, but it might not be cool and "manly" enough for certain people out there.
>>229342You can find a lot of vegan youtubers that just upload recipes and are not preachy. Many of their recipes only need very basic cooking skills (and also upload their recipes to websites if you don't like sitting through cooking videos).
No. 229368
>>229349I’d say that a quick clean death like being shot in the head or heart and lungs is a better death than we allow most people to have. I’m honestly of the opinion that cpr on the elderly and life support for people comatose so long there’s extensive brain damage is closer to abuse than humanely killing an animal. Solitary confinement is more abusive imo. I consider abuse to be causing suffering with the intention being that the victim will suffer. Beating something to death is abuse sure, but I don’t see how shooting a rabbit or deer in the head is abuse when they don’t suffer. Same goes for a pneumatic bolt on a cow.
They go from being a deer doing deer shit to just nothing. Like flicking a lightswitch.
If I was given the choice between dying like Terry Schiavo or dying like a lame horse, I’d personally prefer to be shot behind the shed.
Tbh I don’t like discussing my thoughts of human life and value because someone starts with the ‘edgy’ comments and it’s all downhill from there ime. I don’t think anyone necessarily has a right to live. Maybe it’s because I can’t escape my own stupid nihilism
No. 229380
>>229368The abuse of animals within factory farming (too small spaces, cutting off body parts,…) are not made with the intention to be cruel though, its just for practical and economical reasons. Is it then okay?
Also, you keep saying that a clean death is better than x, but there is a third option that is the most preferable: not getting killed for no reason. I say "for no reason" because we don't need meat to survive, so it is the same as killing simply for fun or hunting elephants for ivory. If all animals could grow up without suffering and be killed without pain, that would be a huge improvement, I totally agree. But "better" is not "good". You say you would prefer to be shot before suffering, but would you be okay with being shot right now? And nobody pursuing your killer?
Animals are not humans with hopes and dreams of course, but naturally all animals strive for survival and safety, so killing them goes against their most prominent agency.
No. 229384
>>229331>what are your feelings on humane euthanasia?Like for humans? Most if not all vegans I know are in support of euthanasia being available to anyone who wants to choose how and when they die if they're suffering too much.
>What do you guys think of lab-grown meat?Personally I'm in full support of it. I want to own a dog one day and I want it to be easy for vegans to feed their carnivorous/omnivorous pets without supporting cruelty. Also, I'd love if lab grown meat became cheaper than the meat that's eaten now (which it eventually will) and it became the norm to eat. We could prevent so much suffering that way :)
A lot of vegans don't understand the benefit of lab grown meat but I keep reminding them of the points above. I really want it to succeed.
No. 229391
>>229380There’s still people to whom meat is necessary tho? It’s been part of human behaviour since before we were fully human and people aren’t just going to give up culturally significant foods.
As I said earlier, I tan the skins and sell the leather to pay rent. Should I be homeless? (If I could get a normal job I already would have)so deer can overpopulate and destroy the environment because they are an introduced pest, resulting in less feeding grounds for native animals which then die?
What are we supposed to do about invasive animals like that?
Is there a vegan solution to rampant overpopulation? A vegan solution to invasive pests?
I still don’t understand why I’m supposed to view an animal as my equal. It isn’t nice to kill an animal but why is it murder?
>>229383It’s a vegan thread it’s autism all the way down
>>229384Animal euthanasia actually. Thought that was obvious, oops.
No. 229393
>>229391
>why is it murder?While I support the fact you are self-sufficient (but probably wouldn't want to hang out at your house cause I'm squeamish) killing is murder. Taking a life is murder. It's pretty simple.
You are not taking part in the meat industry based on what you wrote, so it doesn't apply to you but organized farming and killing is neglect, cruelty, murder.
Catching wild is ok in my opinion as the animal had a life and freedom, but there's obviously something abhorrent about combining neglect with murder as in organized farming.
No. 229395
>>229391>Animal euthanasia actuallyNo I'm obviously against that.
>>229388>Wondering how vegans feel about owning carnivorous pets?I don't think I can speak for everyone but I wouldn't personally get a carnivorous pet. I wouldn't like to touch meat or prepare it until lab grown meat is easily available. That doesn't mean I can't own rabbits, birds, fish etc. in the meantime. I know that there are some who keep dogs and don't feed them meat (and they are A VERY MINOR PERCENTAGE) but I think they're denying their dogs what they need. Dogs need meat, they were designed for it. Humans don't, we have a choice.
Here's a video from a vegan youtuber that I really like about what she feeds her dogs. I think you should watch it, it's very informative.
No. 229399
>>229291Well, considering they were carried out by the democratically elected government, they were. Just like the death sentence in America and killings carried out during war. All legal murder, sanctioned by the relevant ruling government. Idiot.
>>229272Zoophilia is actually way more common than anyone likes to think, even though the thought makes me want to die.
>>229307I don't think animals are equal to humans, I just don't think they means they deserve to be farmed for my pleasure. Sustenance hunting is very different to factory farming, and killing an animal because you need to survive is very different to rolling up to McDs every day to get a double sausage McMuffin.
>>229331Euthanasia is a kindness, not a cruelty. I wish they would apply it to humans. I would also eat lab-grown meat; if nothing had to suffer I'm all for it.
>>229388I would own a carnivorous pet. I don't eat animal products because humans don't function at their best when they do, so it's unnecessary. Sure a dog can survive without meat, but they won't be at optimum health, so if I chose to get a dog I'd be a responsible owner and feed it the best diet. Like someone who respects and cares about animals should.
>>229391This argument is so fucking ridiculous. Cavemen would have rarely ate meat, because it would be hard to get and impossible to store. Insects, maybe, but I don't see people desperately defending their desire to eat crickets here? If you look it up humans are actually frugivores, which aligns with the foods they'd actually have in abundance - nuts, grains, roughage and fruits.
Also "people won't just give up -" is a shit argument that has been put up against every major cultural change ever. Women didn't want the vote at one point, remember?
No. 229416
>>229409The problem with that logic is that it will never be possible to get 100% of any group to agree on anything fully. As long as you agree that keeping pets is a necessity, there will never be a “ban” on breeding them. You can’t just turn off a living thing’s ability to reproduce for population control without risking extinction of that population. Humans don’t even give a fuck about the welfare of other humans on a nonpersonal scale, so it’s not like we can rely on them to do the right thing in every case for the benefit of the animal.
Domesticated animals aren’t going anywhere soon, and people already give barely any fucks about their rights, health and well-being. If you want that to change, you need to change the attitudes of the people responsible for the animals, because as long as a human is able to control an animal, they will. But saying that animals who eat meat “don’t need to” is stupid. Yes, there are ways around eating meat. But no, the human body was not
designed to “go without” meat. Idle another anon said, we crave meat for a reason. We ended up on top of the food chain for a reason- because we ate the other links and came out on top. If we hadn’t been given that drive and focused on plants and fruit instead, we would still be in the trees with monkeys. In fact, some species of monkeys will actually sometimes kill and eat each other, but it’s rare.
No. 229422
>>229403Feeding yo dog meat is the same as feeding your kid meat until they decided otherwise (obviously the dog will never decide otherwise)
If something is in your care it's your priority to give it the best care possible. It isn't a moral quandary when it is about caring for others. Same as anyone who has health problems should have a varied diet including meat, eggs, whatever is needed to survive. Vegan and vegetarianism is a luxury provided to those who are independent and healthy enough to sustain it, not something you can apply to other's lives without consideration.
A lot of vegans and other SJW types live in a bubble where they assume their life choices can be led by anyone else, without thought to differences in upbringing, health, culture etcetera.
What do you guys think of the lunatics who
raise their kids vegan? There's a few on youtube. It's akin to starving them in my eyes.
No. 229430
>>229424lol no, we have fucking guns.
you idiots refuse to acknowledge that tools got us to where we are. tools, clothes, shelter, killing other animals.
No. 229449
>>229430The guns were covered under "brainpower" since we didn't evolve gun-arms at any point, Anon. Houses, weapons, medical care, books, recorded media: All results from brainpower, thus the only advantage we have over animals. It is not a physical one as in literal strength, habitat choices and skill, which is what the natural food chain is all about.
We are prey animals who devised clever means of defense and retreat: Not attack. Without tools we'd be fucked. Drop someone in a forest with nothing but clothes and a cellphone and see how long the "top of the food chain" lasts.
No. 229457
>>229430So if you had no guns and you were locked in a room with a lion, you'd lose the fight. Why? Because we're not at the top of the food chain. We're very low.
We don't have large teeth, we don't have big jaws, we don't have claws, we don't have big snouts and we can't digest meat without cooking it first. We need meat just as much as a fucking rabbit does.
No. 229472
>>229399Sorry but the thing about cavemen rarely having meat is retarded. We only got to cavemen level because we started eating meat in the first place. Persistence hunting is still insanely effective especially when you’re hunting in a group. The ability to hunt that way, and with weapons was why we were such a successful predator. The animal is faster but we can follow it all fuckin day. Don’t use ignorance to try and push your agenda.
>>229457Damn dude read a book why you think our digestive system can handle meat if we need it less than a rabbit? Besides, a rabbit low on protein will eat her own babies so…?
Have a look into how humans evolved, and how we hunted. Neanderthal and earlier species persistence hunted using tools. The meat and discovery of cooking is why we are smart enough to have an ethical issue with eating meat now anyway.
Goddamn ign’ant.
No. 229475
>>229409Dogs evolved with us practically symbiotically dude, cats essentially domesticated themselves cause there was lots of prey wherever we had settlements.
Read a book, Jesus.
No. 229477
>>229395Wait you’re against mercy for sick and suffering animals?
What about human euthanasia? Is that okay?
Do you know about situations like horses/cattle with broken legs or newborns with deformities incompatible with life, or were you under the impression that broken legs could be treated? Not having s go genuinely curious as to why you’d disagree with humane euthanasia for suffering animals as a vegan.
No. 229482
>>229393That’s not actually how murder is defined tho anon. Humans are so intelligent that we have a lot of nuance around death.
If I shot someone who was wearing camouflage, and hiding in the bushes silently, am I a murderer? There’s no intent or knowledge that it was a human so I don’t see how it is.
Is a physician assisting a suicide because the patient is in agony and robbed of dignity by some terrible cancer a murderer?
Is abortion murder because it’s living cells?
Is it okay to kill the rampaging elephant that’s killing people in your little African village because it’s doing it’s crazy male heat thing and they can’t just move the animal? How about snakes on my property?
A tiger snake will not wait for animal control and I’m not gonna get bit bagging and relocating one of the most dangerous snakes in the world because someone with no idea what their overly broad statement actually means.
Sorry but if murder is killing any living thing ever that’s fucking stupid and you’re all murderers as well.
No. 229497
>>229457We are brachydont. Hve teeth for slicing and ripping, no teeth for grinding. We have a relatively short digestive system, with no developed caecum or stomach. We can eat large portions of meat, hell some places people live exclusively on meat and live just fine. We are made to eat meat, if a plant eater eats meat they get sick or die. We don't.
Its fine to not want to eat meat, but don't bullshit and pretend humans didn't evolve to eat meat.
No. 229500
>>229493Do you?
Everything you’ve said I’m doing is exactly what you’re doing by choosing to discount theories that disagree with veganism.
If we aren’t made to eat meat why do we have canine teeth? Why is our gut long enough to process it? Why don’t we have negative reactions to eating it a few times a week?
How did grains lead to increased brain size? Meat is believed to be a large factor because it’s high protein.
There’s been plenty of points brought up that are straight up ignored in favour of repeating the same rhetoric about ethics and evolutionary theories with little support where it counts.
Your criticism of my arguments applies to your own.
No. 229507
>>229500this person is esl so it's very obvious when they post. if you look for shitty esl posts you'll see they do this with every single point that's brought up. they just try to shut it down tumblr style. i wish more people like
>>229477 were ITT i actually want to have real discussion.
No. 229607
>>229569Nta, but there are some metabolic adaptations in certain populations, e.g. lactase persistence in northern Europeans and African pastoralists or fatty acid metabolism in Inuit — that's evolution. Idk if a fully vegan diet could be composed for anybody's needs, and is certainly not possible in every environment when keeping with traditional lifestyles.
Factory farming meat should be reformed/abolished though.
No. 229621
>>229403But I don’t own a carnivorous pet. I’m saying I would own one, as in if I wanted to keep pets I wouldn’t specifically go for a vegetarian one. Why are you trying to catch me out? At least I’d still be trying to make a difference by being vegan, unlike many others who eat meat and own cats.
>>229409This. It’s very true that there’s way too many domesticated animals purely because of humans. It is the situation now that, in order to fix what we’ve done to other species, we would have to let many die without ever breeding to restore balance.
>>229472I’m not ignorant you dick. Please provide the evidence that cavemen were eating meat at least once a day - which still comparatively less than modern man - to prove your point. I’d love to know where they were storing all this meat to keep it fresh. Maybe they had one of those prehistoric freezers.
>>229500Broccoli has more protein than beef. Peas and beans contain protein. Meat has protein in because animals eat it… and cows are vegetarian. We have canine teeth and the ability to eat meat because it enables our survival in many environments, not because we’re amazing predators. And it’s actually short guts for meat, long guts for greens - that’s why so many of us are getting cancers etc because we have rotting flesh stuck in our systems for way too long. Your “points” seem to have been taken directly from rednecks on Facebook getting angry that someone challenged their right to eat a burger.
No. 229623
>>229621I never said they all ate meat daily but it’s not fuckin hard to finish a couple rabbits between a group. Hunters are largely thought to have hunted for their families. Say two dudes go out hunting, they bring back a deer. It’s been gutted and bled so the decomp isn’t all that bad. Then you what it over a fire, cook the hell out of it thus negating lots of the bacteria that grew during its 12 hour trip. Distribute that between say ten people. It’s mostly gone by tomorrow.
They most likely would have been sustenance hunters like basically all other predatory animals and wouldn’t have killed more than what they would eat. The hides were part of the clothing and shelter that allowed pre-modern man to survive better in colder temperatures, and bone and antlers were used in toolmaking. Cave paintings depict hunting scenes. Why on earth would anyone say they were more likely to be vegan?
No. 229624
>>229621Lmao you actually believe Linda McCartney and her bullshit about meat rotting in your colon for years? Abso-fucking-lately ignorant.
The increase in cancers is related to too many different factors to say it’s meat.
Smoking, obesity, chemical additives to name a few. I G N O R A N T
You sound like you’re reaching for arguments and more interested in insulting and preaching others to death than discussing things like a grownup. Keep beating that dead moral high horse.
No. 229629
>>229623How were they catching these daily rabbits, without a gun or a trap? Running after them and killing them with their massive canines? Kek
No one said they’d be more likely to be vegan. Just saying they wouldn’t have eaten meat often, solely because it would have been more difficult to catch back then and impossible to store.
>>229624https://nutritionfacts.org/2017/04/11/what-animal-protein-does-in-your-colon/Yeah Linda McCartney facts, as presented by actual doctors lmao. So why are certain meats classed as Class 1 carcinogen (just like cigarettes) by the WHO then?
You again just sound like butthurt rednecks on Facebook, considering you have provided no evidential backup to your little rage-sperg other than calling me ignorant? “Dead moral high horse” hahaha
>>229625I’m well aware that we didn’t have peas and broccoli back then, they were just examples of plants having high levels of protein. Pretty much all animals we eat for their protein content (cows, pigs, chickens) eat a vegan diet in captivity. How does that work, bookanon? Are farm animals magically converting nothing into protein? Please educate me, nutrition goddess~
No. 229632
>>229629Cured and processed meats were classed as a carcinogen anon. Smoked and salted meats and meats with chemical preservatives.
Snares. Nets. That’s how they caught them. A group could easily have covered a burrow and flushed them out with sound.
My right to eat anything I like has literally never been challenged in any way. Vegans existing doesn’t challenge my rights or effects me at all.
Educate yourself on early hunting and the human digestive system. If food is rotting in your guts you have gastroparesis and need a doctor badly.
No. 229654
>>229629>Pretty much all animals we eat for their protein content (cows, pigs, chickens) eat a vegan diet in captivity>Are farm animals magically converting nothing into protein?Not taking either side, just wondering - aren't these animals capable of digesting fiber and thus successfully feeding off literal grass, which humans can't do?
I know that's the case for cows, not sure about other animals
No. 229655
>>229630I personally don’t understand the aggression either. A bit of mild sarcasm from a vegan and suddenly all vegans are nasty retards with a superiority complex who just don’t know the faxxxx.
>>229632Right… so I’m guessing vegetables with salt on are also a carcinogen? And grilled vegetables? Considering they’re equal when being processed in the omnivorous human gut, apparently…
Again, these things would have been unlikely to be in widespread use at the dawn of mankind. Meat eating would have been mostly reliant on injured and/or already dead animals, which would have limited human consumption greatly as other animals would be in competition with us for it.
>>229654Right, but human bodies use fibre to ensure the smooth working of our digestive tract. We don’t even absorb animal protein all that efficiently, anyway.
No. 229656
>>229655>to ensure the smooth working of our digestive tract. Yes, but that's not the same kind of processing animals do, so they do indeed convert "nothing" (as far as our digestive system is concerned) into protein.
Iirc broken down fiber is turned into carbs though so it's not exactly an argument pro-meat either, but your comparison seemed kinda silly
No. 229666
>>229664Your first statement was
>Pretty much all animals we eat for their protein content (cows, pigs, chickens) eat a vegan diet in captivity. How does that work, bookanon? Are farm animals magically converting nothing into protein?So, uh, yes, those animals are "magically" converting something our digestive system considers 'nothing' into protein. You seemed to believe that if those animals are capable of converting a vegan diet into the protein we eat, it's possible to do that and we should be able to do the same. Which is a dumb comparison to make.
No. 229671
Ugh a vegan thread. I fucking hate veganism. Nothing more than bullshit and trend which fucking ~*otherwordly ethereal earth mother elf*~ types adopt to make themselves feel and think they're more socially relevant on social platforms and think they're better than everyone else. Nothing more than an emotional argument also.
They're more concerned with the lives of livestock, which are man cultivated and created and have been for centuries. Livestock are not their wild counterparts such as the Wild boar, Junglefowl and Ox, they've been man cultivated and produced to bear more meat. They are not natural animals and only have one purpose and that is to be eaten.
If the livestock were to be freed into the wild they would upset the ecosystem and disrupt the balance as well as upset the food chain. They may even extinct natural, wild animals by causing too much competition for food sources with their consumption especially if there are no natural predators to control their numbers in the environment they herd within.
I don't understand how someone can show more compassion for a fucking cow than someone eating to support their lifeform via eating animal products to get essential nutrients which a critical few essential to support the human body, are only found in animal sources.
Organic free range eggs, boiled with a runny yolk, are one of the most superior foods you can eat and is noted as a superfood. It is full of b vitamins and omega 3 as well as protein and of course provides you the essential nutrients the human body needs, exclusive to animal product. They are an anti aging food, support brain health, function and efficiency, great for hair and studies have even noted they have cancer fighting ability. I feel great after eating them, it gives such a boost.
And all this special expensive plant protein vegans source from chia seeds, hemp etc The human body can not easily make use of this type of protein because plant protein is not readily available for the human body to absorb and utilise. It's also not the amount of protein that is important, it is the TYPE I.e sourced from animal! So many fucking vegans i've come across irl and from reading, researching and observing online accounts and entries that shared one thing in common; They quit. Why? Because their health deteriorated and it made them ill. It will deteriorate your health over time. One day your green blend smoothie will cause bloating and disagree with you. Veganism is okay initially,for a while, because it's like a detox, but it is not suitable long-term, as often after 2-3 years of being vegan, people become very weak and develop serious health problems. Even fucking Gandhi attempted Vegan. He detailed he felt so weak and couldn't even crawl from bed. In desperation he reached for a jug of goats milk and as soon as he drank that goats good milk he felt revived.
It's a terrible fucking diet and lifestyle choice. It's definitely high maintanence and it can only be supported with a multitude of supplements. It's one of those diets that cannot work naturally and only within society and modern civilisation where supplements are provided. Vegan in the wild without your special whole foods, plant proteins and expensive maintenance supplements created in a lab? Destination fucked.
Vegetarians have more sense.
There is nothing wrong with eating animal product as long as it is not factory farmed. Personally, all animal product I buy and consume is certified organic and free range as well as approved by animal welfare. I also don't consume dairy.
Getting local produce is also good. From farmers markets is excellent. You can check out the farm and see if its animal welfare and procedure is to your liking. It's also good to support farmers because farmers have fed generations of people and it's important to keep them in business. It supplies them a job to support themselves and families, and it is a job that can be passed down through the family. Farmers are needed because they know the land and can cultivate it and animals to feed people. It is essential to keep this tradition and skill alive.
A lot of studies and research supporting veganism are rather sketchy, bias and not transparent. In a particular study supporting the notion that veganism is a healthier choice compared to those who eat meat, it did not detail nor discriminate the type of meats those who consume meat ate. Was it processed meat? Well obviously those who eat processed meat will be unhealthier than those who are vegan whom negate all meat product. Was it "real" meat product but poor cheap quality? In this case, the meat consumed would be better than processed meat but it still is not healthy for consumption. Finally, were the meats consumed by the people of which the data for this vegan vs meat eating study, were they high quality, organic and/ or local produce? In this case the meat will be in good condition and will not present health problems. The quality of the meat/ animal product consumed is vital. Animal product is not harmful to the human body if it is good quality i.e as nature intended. This fact cannot be stressed enough.
Vegans on average will be healthier than the average who consumes meat but it's because they do not consume processed meats which are know to be carcinogenic and cancer inducing, since they avoid meats completely. They also tend to be more health conscious and frequent health food stores. It's not a reliable or fair comparison.
The best diet is well balanced and includes plenty of fish, eggs and green. The Mediterranean and Japanese diet are the best examples. Veganism is not. Humans are naturally omnivores.
Tribes in Africa such as the Maasai consume the blood of their cattle as well as RAW milk (note raw milk is completely different from the milk available in supermarkets.) They have amazing bone structure and physical form because the food they consume promotes good health which then promotes good genes. Good structure/ looks signafies good health and genes.
Another thing that really fucks me off about vegans is how they don't consume honey = support bees. They call it "explotiation." Thats so fucking dense. By purchasing genuine honey products one is actively contributing and providing for the care and growth of the bee population. The bees are not exploited, bee keepers bee keepers do leave some honey for the bees. It's necessary to buy honey products to support their existence and secure their future because that money goes towards funding to find cures for parasites, mites and viruses that have been known to strike bees and deplete their numbers drastically. Bees are important for human existence and btw, all those almonds you rely upon for your precious almond milk? The flowers of those trees can only be pollinated by bees. No bees = no almonds = no vegan almond milk.
And let's not forget how vegans don't even seem aware or seem to care for the palm oil issue which is more damaging to the environment, threatening the rainforests and driving the Intelligent, peaceful Oraganutan to extinction. I don't ever hear a vegana exclaim concern or give a second thought to avoiding palm oil and opting to source the sustainable palm oil option in the food and products they buy. I guess it's just not TRENDING like veganism for them to take seriously because it won't garner as much attention.
Rant over//
No. 229675
>>229671There is so much wrong with this comment I don’t even know where to start. I’m vegan and nowhere near an ethereal earth mother type, whatever bullshit that is. All I can say is: get a fucking life anon, writing a damn essay on something you don’t even like.
>>229674Yeah, because all women are holding themselves against Victoria’s Secret models as the picture of health…
No. 229684
>>229675Apply what you've just said to yourself; Get a fucking life anon, orbiting a gossip site dedicated to bitch about cows you dont even like lmao
And I presented many valid points of which some are supported by factual evidence.
Your simple dismissal of what I've written suggest you have nothing to counter it sooo
No. 229722
>>229679They don’t need to be protein-rich, they just need to contain protein and make up the bulk of their diet, both of which is the case.
>>229684How do you know I use the other boards? OT isn’t for gossip, just chatting anonymously about dedicated topics that I do like, such as veganism. Also you managed to present all your proven points with no evidence whatsoever, yet I managed to provide two. I could provide far more if I could be bothered to engage someone with Facebook-tier debate skills.
>>229685They have well-paid professional facialists, experienced professional makeup artists, and good genes. Many of them ARE youthful, and plenty of people would disagree that they had a great physique. Slim yes, but “great” is relative.
No. 229737
>>229655You’ve gotta just be being deliberately stupid about the carcinogenic classification of cured and salted meats. No a sprinkle of salt obviously doesn’t cause cancer, huge amounts of salt and the smoking process cause the carcinogens.
Deliberately missing the point to make a poor joke really isn’t helping, you’re just being contrarian
No. 229754
Basically VS presents a good point for every "argument" against veganism in this helpful folder;
https://imgur.com/a/EAKzKIf you eat meat you can consider these points if you want but judging by the shitshow this thread has becoming, you'll probably get
triggered and think it's patronising.
No. 229786
>>229754Probably because they’re made to be very patronising. It’s not “
triggering” just stupid lol.
All vegan discussion is essentially two opposing sets of values and morals and a bunch of idiots who can only understand the world presented as a false dichotomy.
Vegans think their morals are superior because they consider chickens to be people and can’t accept anybody who doesn’t share that belief as, so they throw paint and scream murder.
Meat eaters refuse to give any ground and defend retarded shit like factory farming and bitch about how much they hate lettuce and people who smell like patchouli, because hurrdurr vegan hippies selling dream catchers in the park are the only vegans.
Both sides are full of assholes who say retarded shit like ‘meat stays in your colon for ten years and gives you cancer’ ‘what about protein?!’ ‘Cows can be raped’ ‘I’m gonna eat more steak because you’re vegan’ and both sides acting tough saying “
triggered?” With a great big shit eating grin.
Neither side is entirely right, you’re all just too fucking self absorbed and stupid to see it.
No. 229837
>>229834Nope, not oppressed at all, just helping to stop oppression of other species by us. In fact I feel pretty catered for by my society these days, it’s great!
(& FYI have never called anyone a rapist or a murderer for their diet lmao. My entire family is omni, I don’t like it but I accept its their choice. Your experience of vegans is not true of every single vegan on the planet. Just makes you sound dumb.)
No. 229841
>>229655>personally don’t understand the aggression eitherI heard before (can't remember where) that a lot of the time non-vegans are conflicted deep down about their diet. Like, let's be real; if it was natural for us to kill other animals we'd be out doing it with our bare hands and eating it raw. Not buying it in nice neat little packaging that contains the softest parts and bringing it home to cook to make it digestible and coating it in seasoning to make it palatable.
But one of the first responses to having your beliefs questioned is anger. Yeah it sucks to have everything you know questioned but you have to do it. Vegans are so used to being questioned on a near daily basis that we're desensitised. I often think "Oh great what will it be today? Let me spin the wheel…will it be 'I couldn't live without cheese lol!' or 'Mmmm bacon!'?"
Look, it fucking sucks to know the truth. I'm sure men who have been misogynistic assholes their whole lives who finally get a girlfriend or have a daughter and find out that they've been sexually assulted by guys like themselves hurts a lot. I'm sure it's difficult to question your political beliefs too. But becoming a vegan for the first time is fucking horrific. When I was a kid, I wanted to be vegetarian and my family wouldn't allow me to. The arguments I hear against veggie lifestyles are the same I heard over a decade ago "But we have canines! But they have good lives and they die of natural causes! But they'd go extinct if we didn't eat them!" I realised that that's all the things my
relatives told themselves to help themselves sleep at night. And for a while, I guess it kind of worked on me?
Then I watched videos about fur factories and puppy farms and slaughterhouses as a teenager when I had access to the internet and it fucked me up ngl. I had finally seen the truth, and not some cute little bedtime story we invent in our heads. I spent weeks crying and wondering why we treat sentient, beautiful animals like that when there's no need. It fucking hurt.
Meat eaters are stuck in the stage I was as a kid. Lying to themselves because the truth is really difficult to take in. It's easier to listen to some advertisement about free range chickens than it is to expose yourself to reality. To anyone who is angry at vegans, I'm not angry back at you. I just want you to have the same good experience I did in the end. I overcame all of that guilt and anger and now I'm eating great food, feeling good and just overall way happier in life. Anger isn't good for you.
No. 229846
>>229841See this is why I find myself feeling aggressive. Not because vegans think they are challenging me, but because of this attitude of absolute correctness and moral righteousness. Taking on an attitude of enlightenment and condescension towards who they view as the poor ignorant savages.
My ethics aren’t challenged and I’m not secretly feeling evil and guilty as though I’m so foolish and stubborn that I’m literally not able to accept my own ethics and values.
Are you aware that you’re doing this or are you just riding the “enlightenment” wave all the way to cognitive dissonance island? It’s like a religion and not a diet with some of you guys.
No. 229850
>>229841>Like, let's be real; if it was natural for us to kill other animals we'd be out doing it with our bare hands and eating it raw.We evolved to have a big ass brain and have skills to make huntng and preparing food easier. Its still as natural. What about other tool using animals? Are birds that use sticks to fish out worm not meant to eat worms because they use tools? Birds that use bait to catch fish? What about otters that crush clams with rocks? Apes that use spears to catch fish?
Thats literally the same thing, just more simple. Are you really saying that using tools to hunt is unatural, considering how many species that do it?
No. 229886
>>229841>if it was natural for us to kill other animals we'd be out doing it with our bare hands and eating it raw. Not buying it in nice neat little packaging that contains the softest parts and bringing it home to cook to make it digestible and coating it in seasoning to make it palatable.Are you literally retarded or just pretending? Legit question
None of our current eating habits are natural, agriculture is over two thousand years old. OVER two thousand years old. Are you going to tell me "if it were natural to eat pants we'd be gathering them ourselves instead of buying the most tasteful parts and bringing them home and using salad dressing to make them palatable"?
No. 229889
>>229886Adding to this because I'm mad
>cooking vegetables>making tomato sauce>cooking in general>ignoring the fact that most meat is seasoned with nothing but salt and pepperI hope you're baiting.
No. 229894
What are everyone's favourite vegan meals to make? Let's drown out the triggered meat-eaters for a while.
I love making chilli. Just soy (TVP) soaked in stock or simmered in passata for a few minutes with any veggies I have (carrots, peppers, onions, garlic, kidney beans, black beans, tomatoes) and spices (cumin, paprika and chilli or if I'm feeling extra lazy, just a spice mix). I can survive off it for days in quesadillas, enchiladas, on tortillas, with rice or even just on its own. I always have vegan cheese and avocados in the house to go with it. It's so versatile and comfort food-y.
No. 229898
>>229891We still get middle class vegans talking about how meat is not necessary when a huge part of the population doesn't get proper drinking water and even more people don't have sewage and waste is scattered on the streets. But sure, tell me about how killing a cow is immoral and a huge problem while these people eat rice and beans most days then treasure whatever meat and animal fat they can get on the weekends.
Idk, veganism always seemed like such a privilege to me. I have the means not to eat meat now that I have a proper education and a good job, but growing up meat was something that everyone treasured and valued a lot, and I don't think we who live(d) in squalor should matter less than animals. But vegans here don't give a shit about poor people, they don't try to help. It seems like nothing but virtue signaling.
No. 229904
>>229898So you are saying you need a degree and a good job to not eat meat? I don't know where you live but I'm calling bullshit.
Veggies, beans and rice are cheap as fuck so I'm not sure where 'veganism is privilege' comes from, because it really isn't.
>>229894I love noodles with soy sauce, chili oil, vinegar and peanut butter/tahini. I put tofu and veggies in it too. It's sooo good I could eat it all day.
No. 229913
>>229904Veganism absolutely is a privilege. You know what happens when you try to be vegan when you’re poor and don’t know shit about nutrition? You end up bloated and haggard like Kiki and Dakota Ostrenga because all they eat is not-meat and not-dairy and make up the difference with soy mac and cheese and mochi cake.
If the human body didn’t need meat then our bodies wouldn’t start falling apart without it or a specialized, carefully planned diet.
No. 229917
>>229913>you’re poor and don’t know shit about nutritionThe examples you gave are Americans, we all know Americans know nothing about nutrition regardless of how much money they have.
Most of the world's cuisines are based off of "poor man's meals". Soups, stews, rice dishes, salads, curries and plain pasta are all cheap af, nutritional and are what people worldwide eat daily even today when we don't "have" to. Most of the world teach their children to cook and pass down their recipes, so we don't have that problem. Even though the basis for most cuisines is veggie, I don't think many of us are complaining about eating "peasant food" lmao.
I've been vegan for about five years now and vegetarian for 12 and I can assure you that I'm not "falling apart" but thanks for your concern lollll
No. 229926
>>229898You do realise that by keeping animals for meat you would be diverting clean water and grain to raising them? But yeah as I said, living on a mostly vegan diet and having meat once a week or whatever is majorly preferable to the way most Western people eat it (multiple times daily).
>>229913And this argument just isn’t true. All basic foods - rice, pasta, bread, beans, vegetables, legumes - are vegan, are ridiculously cheap, easily stored and simple yet versatile to cook with. A bean chilli, a vegetable & peanut curry, or pasta pomodoro is definitely not a specialised carefully-planned diet. Nuts and fruit are more expensive, but you shouldn’t eat excessive amounts of either anyway (fats/sugars). The body actually functions a lot better on a vegan diet; it’s been proven to reduce your chances of cancer and heart disease, for example. In your situation, the poor people with no nutritional education are actually eating a great diet high in nutritious foods and low in animal products, whilst the rich educated Westerners aren’t… that’s why they’re increasingly obese and unwell.
I’ve been vegan for 5 years and I’m in great condition. Just went through a healthy vegan pregnancy where I gained sufficient weight, and am exclusively breastfeeding a healthy child who is also gaining sufficiently.
>>229894I love vegan shepherds pie, topped with sweet potato instead of white. I use a bit of fajita spice in the stock when marinating the mince, which gives it a nice warmth. Vegan Parmesan mixed into the mash is nice, also.
No. 229929
>>229904>beans and rice are cheap as fuckNta but these can also make someone fat as fuck if not balanced with other foods and eaten in the right portions. Same with soy sauce noodles. Eating carbs all the time can result in insulin issues even if the person isn't necessarily getting fatter, which is why countries with carb-based meals are seeing an increase in diabetes and cardiovascular disease.
I would not expect every person to find success with a vegan diet. Most healthy vegans I know tend to be on the wealthier side and thus can afford fresher food in greater frequency and don't have to resort to rice, pasta, and other fillers to make up the base of their diets.
No. 229934
>>229929That’s a good point, but beans are actually a protein food, not carb - in a vegan diet they would take the place of meat in a meal. So this issue could be applicable to anyone with any diet.
The only people I believe couldn’t find success with a vegan diet are those who truly don’t have access to the foods they’d need to replace it (the Inuit, for example) and those who don’t want to. If you can’t afford frozen vegetables then your problems are bigger than your dietary choices… although meat in the U.K. is comparatively pretty expensive for the amount you get per £.
No. 229998
>>229904Did you read my post? Do you really think that people who can only afford meat once a week are worried or even have the time and presence of mind to worry about animals' well-being? And yes, in a sense you absolutely need education (not necessarily higher education, but some education) to be vegan because otherwise you're not very likely to question established customs and traditions that are part of the community such as "eating meat with your family on Sunday lunch" or ever even hear about veganism.
It's privilege and privilege and even more privilege.
No. 230002
>>229996Australia. Normally breakfast is cold cereal or toast, lunch might be a pie or pastie or sandwich or salad, dinner is meat and veg.
Cooked breakfasts aren’t a regular weekday thing for anyone I’ve met and a sanga with vegemite and cheese or salad is pretty typical unless you’re a tradie who buys petrol station pies. Obviously it’s not a hard and fast rule but it’s pretty typical.
No. 230754
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No. 230840
>>230804Can’t tell if you’re a troll or just stupid. There’s no science in that article, and the idea that you can only be truly vegan if you practically abstain from existing is clearly ridiculous. That attitude is comparative to “we’ll never stop people abusing children so let’s stop trying” or “we’ll never end cancer so let’s stop treating people for it” or “we’ll always do damage to the planet so let’s pump the ozone full of toxic fumes”. I’d rather minimise the harm I do to animals than do the maximum harm possible.
>>230802>levels of iodine in plant milk were 2% lower than in cows milk2% of 88 micrograms - which is a millionth of a gram - per 250ml is 1.76 micrograms, so you’d have to drink an extra 2.84ml to make up for it… You’re right, let’s give up the whole vegan thing, I don’t think I can handle all that plant milk! /s
>one of the best sources of calcium is dairy products Sure that may be true, but more than half of this list are vegetables! How strange. Almost like you don’t need dairy AT ALL, whether it’s real or replacement.
https://draxe.com/top-10-calcium-rich-foods/Idk, I reckon going vegan could actually make you smarter. All that looking at labels would at least teach you how to read and research properly.
No. 230841
>>230754Lmao where did you find something this silly?
Chimps will eat meat given the opportunity. Some of those smart fuckers are exhibiting pre-man hunting behaviours and using tools to kill other animals including other chimps.
No. 230853
>>230844Using just dentristry to claim humans are meant to eat explicitly fruit is the opposite of an intelligent and reasonable argument.
Behavioural adaptations are absolutely relevant to what humans have adapted to eat.
Obviously people aren’t meant to eat a diet of primarily processed sugar but saying we aren’t frugivores isn’t saying that we should all eat soda and hotdogs forever. Obviously people are supposed to eat actual food anon.
Trying to misrepresent an opposing view mostly makes it look like you don’t have any real argument to make.
No. 230862
>>230840Okay kikichan we'll see who's stupid in a couple of years time when you get thin hair like kiki and brain fog. And if you have kids, they'll basically be retarded.
And I was aware the national review article featured no study nor research, it was more of a discussion highlighting the weakness in veganism which the bottomline is; Vegans value other lives more than others.
In fact, vegans are not any better than those who consume large amounts of meat. Vegan just like prolific meat eaters are extremes on either end of the spectrum.
Vegans see more value in the lives of livestock which have been man cultivated for centuries and presents no other purpose other than to be eaten since that is the reason for its existence. Vegans do not place or see value in the lives of insects which are killed via pesticides for their plant based diet or regard plants as an organism with the capability to feel pain, even though it has been proven with the ~ science.
Prolific meat eaters do not place value on lives of livestock higher than humans' which is logical. And at least recognise the human body requires animal product with a balanced diet.
Vegans have just shifted their value and bias onto specific life forms, and value lives of certain animals. Proflic meat eaters are the same except they realise how stupid it is to value livestock more than humans' needs.
There are many natural wild native animals which are killed in the process of plants and crops being harvested because they nest in those areas of follage, of which the vegan diet relies upon.
The study involving lower iodine levels in veganism is just scratching the surface. There will be more conclusive studies in the coming future on veganism since interest in questioning its reliability as a healthy diet long term appears to be surfacing at present.
And the main concern of that study was iodine, not calcium even though it was mentioned briefly. Why you went on a sperg tangent highlighting calcium rich foods are plant based, I don't know, it is irrevelant. Not talking about calcium, talking about iodine as discussed in the study.
Thanks for the concern, but with all the omega 3 fats I get in my diet from egg yolks and fish, it is not an issue I suffer.
Please stop projecting.
No. 230871
>>230853>using just dentistry >21 different biological specifications listedOkay anon. I refer you to your own closing sentence.
>>230862I’ve been vegan for 5+ years and my hair is so thick I can’t manage it lmao. I also had a vegan pregnancy and have a perfectly healthy baby who is 95th percentile in height and hitting development milestones just fine.
It’s very telling that your long-ass answer is based on your assumptions about vegans, rather than anything factual. I don’t value animals above humans and I am aware that they were raised for food for centuries; I just don’t agree that it’s right to play god by creating and ending lives solely for us to eat. Surely if you eat meat you are valuing your life over others… not even your life, just your dietary preferences, as we clearly don’t need it. There’s plenty of vegan athletes achieving at the top, vegan doctors advocating this as a healthy way to live, and of course even more average Joes, living just fine.
I mentioned calcium because the “expert” in the article you posted started talking about iodine and then mentioned calcium out of nowhere. As I said before, maybe going vegan would help you with your reading. No projection, just an impartial observation. Enjoy your dead flesh and unfertilised chicken ovulation!
No. 230985
>>230918nta but i know right? we already hav e scientific evidence that humans evolved to eat different foods regionally. some herbivores, some carnivores some omnivores some who only ate fish. point is we literally already know.
anyway i wouldn't bother arguing in these threads, most of the people don't understand how comparisons work and end up arguing against points that don't exist. it got tiring.
No. 231079
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No. 231862
>>231859lol wow don't be a cunt. she obviously knows. expressing discontentment with vegans trying to shame people into submission is ridiculous.
plus vegan ideology relies on an arrogance that places humans on a pedestal they don't deserve to be on.
No. 231869
>>231867people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. shaming your allies is fucking stupid, that's what she was saying. it's like how you shame people who eat ethical meat and don't support the big meat industry.
also no, veganism isn't just about not supporting the meat industry, it's about having a false sense of smugness by thinking humans are somehow more 'evolved' and shouldn't be like shitty animals. we still rape eachother, we're never going to stop eating meat. you people are ignorant as fuck.
No. 231948
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>>230871I feel sorry for that child. They have a diet forced upon them that they don't even understand the concept of, as of yet. A child should be given the choice once he/she is old enough to understand. You should have been steralised.
Anyhow, yes I already know where eggs come from, I don't need to have that information reiterated to me. It does not bother me. Actually, it's amusing you assume highlighting the fact that eggs are product of the chickens' menstrual cycle will somehow disgust me or others. You appear so immature you view this natural cycle as repulsive, that to consume the eggs of which is a highly nutritious source, is disgusting, which is the tone you present with the way you write "unfertilised chicken ovulation." If you're going to have such pathetic and immature views on the bodily functions and cycles of female animals then you probably apply the same attitude to the menstrual cycles of women. I will have you know the period blood of a woman's menstruation is particularly useful and powerful. It contains stem cells and has been used to create and grow hearts for heart transplants, as studied and exercised by a Japanese scientist.
Similarly, if the egg (particularly the raw yolk), the product of a chicken's menstrual cycle, contains an abundance of goodness, two antioxidants known to suppress cancer, vitamins and complete protein, then I see no reason for consumption of this to be seen as disgusting. I don't view female menstrual cycles as disgusting and shameful unlike you.
And yes, I do enjoy eating "dead flesh" why, would you rather I eat it alive? Sorry, I am not a barbarian.
"Unfertilised chicken ovulation" and "dead flesh." Thank you captain obvious, for stating the obvious.
I really can't be bothered to touch on your other points mentioned.
I will say how stupid it is to look towards athletes and other prominent figures in media and entertainment, who the fuck knows exactly what they eat? No one knows their lifestyle personally. Just because they say so and post some pictures of vegan product and foods, doesn't make reliable. I cant believe this is the notion held by a mother lmao. You know those people can be bought by companies and big names to say and support anything if the paycheck is big enough? In fact that's all their career is, looking to get the next big deal and they'll say and do anything for it. For example, do you honestly think celebrities and models use the products they advertise?? Like Gigi Hadid and Maybeline, do you honestly think she uses that shit even though she advertises it and says she does? Same with "vegan athletes" and other "vegan" media figures. They are big influencers so they will do deals and support companies and products, opinions that are relevant and trending to get the money and more followers. And you should acknowledge people who even eat meat once a week or monthly are called vegan, and those who eat fish sparingly call themselves vegan too. So these types are not completely meat free like you proclaim yet are branded vegan.
Lmao get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.
And with regards to the farming livestock, even in the natural world it is practiced by intelligent species; Ants farm and cultivate Aphids because doing so is beneficial for the ants.
Farming is a smart and efficient way to produce food source. It is the way that the livestock is farmed, the farming model, that should be revised.
Here's good articles. Maybe if you read it you'd actually learn something. Do yourself a favour and educate yourself. These articles would be beneficial for all the vegans here to read actually.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/06/meat-production-veganism-deforestationhttps://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2016/09/25/amp/veganism.aspx No. 231953
>>231855A false sense of moral superiority.
For whatever reason a very vocal group of vegans (like every group of people) aren’t able to entertain an idea they disagree with and don’t wish to have their worldview challenged. This means they consider their personal morals to be the only acceptable choice and those who do otherwise are ignorant/cruel/selfish/wrong.
I’ve had conversations with some very reasonable vegans but they are quiet and overshadowed by the vocal and aggressive ones.
No. 231967
>>231948Tl;dr
Honestly I’m not going to debate you further because endless rants about your ~based~ opinions are really boring to read and don’t teach me anything. I’m super pleased to hear that you’d happily eat menstrual blood though. Maybe you could reduce your egg consumption and start eating your own super-nutritious biological waste product, heard clotted cells are great on sourdough toast.
>>231855Vegans like that are cunts. I’m vegan and happily champion vegetarians because in my mind they’ve taken the first big step - not directly supporting the killing of animals for food. Honestly IMO if the whole world went vegetarian that would be amazing and I think a lot of vegans would become less aggressive (although a lot wouldn’t, too).
That being said, the dairy, egg and honey industry do still all contribute to the death toll of animals because of the necessary scale of production. If we stopped factory farming for dairy/eggs/honey and started homesteading again there simply wouldn’t be enough to meet demand, everyone would have to reduce their consumption massively, and going vegan would end up being simply an easier option. I personally wouldn’t do it, but I have no problem with people who keep cows/chickens/bees as pets and consume the surplus (ethical vegetarianism) but this isn’t the norm. Also people who don’t recycle are fucking trash, vegan or not.
No. 232042
>>231967Now you're just exaggerating what i've mentioned about menstrual blood and talking in a nonsensical, neurotic manner, completely taking it out of context.
Triggered much? Kek
Sooo sorry your reading skills fail you. It must be hard being an illiterate lazy cunt on an image board faced with walls of text in the same font and size from different posters.
No. 232086
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>>232039>>232042>>232045Considering this is all clearly the same anon, I don’t think it’s me that’s
triggered kek.
>Don’t like eating animal ovulation so must find the very idea of human ovulation “repulsive” >Like eating animal ovulation but the suggestion of eating human ovulation is “nonsensical, neurotic and taken out of context”>Okay famAs for being illiterate, my English Literature degree says otherwise… I’d be motivated to read your whinging text wall if it was actually thought-provoking, in any way at all. Why is it that the carnists who want to argue veganism are overwhelmingly aggressive idiots with no real arguments?
No. 232726
Hi vegans,
Let me preface by saying that I don't agree with the typical rhetoric employed by meat eaters to defend their dietary choices, and frankly part of the reason why I wrote this post is to attempt move the discourse away from those tired, meritless and insincere arguments and accusations that are plaguing this thread. But, neither can I find much to agree with with vegans and veganism on bascially anything not related to modern animal agriculture. So I want to raise some discussion points which are concerning to me, and which receive less frequent attention. I'm curious as to what vegans on LC think in regards to:
>the vegan society's definition of veganism: Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.>consumption of palm oil>cocoa production>backyard hens>farmed oysters>lab meat>hunting>speciesismMy thoughts:
I find the word "practicable" in that definition
problematic. Under this definition can, say, historical Tibetan buddhists who had limited plant-based sources of nutrients and therefore arguably only consumed animal products due to necessity, still be called vegans? Also comment that I found really rings true, to me (and kind of awoken me to the fact that vegans are just as prone to the exact type of doublethink as meat eaters):
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/76br0g/to_the_vegans_that_care_about_the_exploitation_of/dod12fb/>My problem is that these things are wholly subjective and many vegans seem to use these criteria synonymously with personal convenience, rather than what is truly necessary. So, if veganism begins to threaten their life quality above their degree of tolerance, then they'll simply invoke the practicability criteria and opt for their personal pleasure instead.…which leads me to my next point. I've seen too many times in vegan communities of "junk-food vegans" embracing and even celebrating oreos etc. when the production of palm oil contributes to the suffering of animals on levels comparable to the production of animal products. This is worse when their attitude towards what in my eyes are much less abhorrent practices in terms of animal welfare, namely backyard hens, is mildly cirtical to hostile. I firmly believe that it's not right to call yourself an ethical vegan if you regularly and wittingly consume palm oil.
What is said about palm oil can be similarly applied to cocoa production, only this time it doesn't impact animals but is still an ethical conundrum as it, with rare exceptions, involves the exploitation/suffering of child labourers. Many vegans would no doubt say that this is outside of the scope of veganism as it pertains to humans and should be reserved for another argument, but
if the reason to not unnecessarily harm or exploit animals is due to the fact that animals are
sentient beings, I can't really see the justification to dismiss the argument against cocoa production from a vegan standpoint as reasonable.
Oysters. It's largely accepted in the scientific community that bivalves are not sentient, and there are ecologically sustainable and even restorative ways to farm oysters. I more or less agree with the argument against excluding oysters solely for the reason that they're classified as animals found here:
https://sentientist.org/2013/05/20/the-ethical-case-for-eating-oysters-and-mussels/comment-page-1/Lab meat. AFAIK, all current methods of producing lab meat requires fetal bovine serum. I'm undecided whether this is a good or necessary compromise in order to reduce the demand for agricultural meat, especially considering the plant-based meat alternatives currently in the market.
As a confession, I can't help but feel bitter about some people's desire to have their cake and eat it too as well as their refusal to acknowledge their own agency when I see them await the advent of the mass production of lab meat with excitement because then they'd "be ~able~ to stop eating real meat", and I daydream about them being somehow denied of meat althogether.Hunting. I'm somehow not upset about it
IF it is done sustainably and not in a sadistic manner. There are definitely
a lot of questionable practices associated with hunting, though, e.g. artifically inducing a population explosion of a species in order to set a pretense for hunting.
Speciesism. I'm never sure if vegans have a problem with all speciesism, or just speciesism between mammals and humans.
No. 232747
>>232726You’ve kind of answered your own question with the definition there
>as far as possible and practicableIf someone has to eat a couple of food products with palm oil in to be vegan, I’m fine with that. It still does less damage than an omnivorous diet, with or without consumption of palm oil.
I don’t know much about cocoa production I’ll admit, so I’ll abstain from answering that one.
Backyard hens - I’m assuming you mean eating the excess eggs. I personally wouldn’t do it, but if someone kept them as pets and ate the leftovers I wouldn’t care.
Farmed oysters - I don’t think many (if any) vegans would agree with this because you would be actively partaking in animal agriculture, even if the animal in question isn’t sentient. Personally I wouldn’t, but if it could be done sustainably then - as with backyard hens - I wouldn’t put too much thought into it.
Lab meat would have to be completely vegan, and as sustainable as possible, although I accept that a lot of vegan foods aren’t sustainable because of palm oil etc.
Hunting for sport is never okay, and never vegan. Hunting for necessary survival - like in the North Pole, for example - is fine, as those people realistically would struggle being vegan anyway. It’s definitely preferable to animal agriculture.
I’m not sure what distinction you’re trying to make there. Clearly it’s all species, otherwise vegans would be fine with eating chicken and fish, considering neither of them are mammals. Obviously other animals can’t be expected to follow an ethical vegan diet, because nature didn’t make them able to consider and/or consume one.
No. 232752
>>232747nta but farmed shellfish are more sustainable than most crops because it does no soil damage.
also the line of sentience is what makes vegans different than vegetarians.
No. 232808
>>232708It’s really interesting discussion and I’m really into sustainable homesteading and stuff. While I’m not vegan at all I do realise that vegans have very legitimate concerns regarding how awful factory farming is for the animals and the environment, and tbh I think most people would benefit from at least reducing meat consumption.
I’ll debate ethics within reason but I dont think it’s a good way for either camp to get their arguments across, especially compared to things that are measurable and fact based like cattle producing methane, destroying soil, displacement of people in developing countries for farming etc.
It’s a really in-depth and interesting topic, and irl, I don’t know any vegans or people who at least acknowledge that they have some valid concerns even if personal feelings about animal consumption are put aside.
No. 233454
>>232752The “line of sentience” doesn’t differentiate vegans from vegetarians at all. Dairy, eggs, and honey still involve sentient creatures being used for food; they’re just not directly supporting the death of sentient creatures for consumption.
>>232790How sad that we rely on bees being needed for farming to keep their population thriving.
>>233321I’ve been vegan for 5 years and I only took a calcium + Vit D supplement while pregnant. Otherwise nothing - I just eat a varied and healthy diet.
No. 233457
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Samefag but excerpt from my course material on commercial farming and climate change. People eating more animal products are causing more land to be used to sustain production, which in turn is damaging soil and changing the environment (as well as contributing hugely to methane gas emittance), which causes climate change.
No. 233510
>>233321I had bloods done multiple times and I was told I'm not deficient in anything (not even B12 which I was surprised by but it's probably due to fortified milk and cereals). But when I got sick last year I asked my doctor for recommendations and she said B12, vitamin C, iron, probiotics (and supplements that feed the bacteria!) and pine bark would be good.
A lot of that you can get naturally by eating lots of fruit, kidney beans and fortified foods. The only real thing that you can't get normally as a vegan is probiotics.
No. 250199
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>>250196Feeling your own teeth is not a scientific way to tell what type of food you should be consuming. Analyzing many different animals and their jaws/teeth/diets is far more reliable. There’s a science to it beyond “teeth sharp, me eat meat.”
No. 250211
>>230754>>250199Primates have been observed to eat meat.
It's silly to cherrpick our molars when we clearly have incisors and canines. We're clearly omnivorous.
No. 250220
>>250216Yeah anon, the point was that I totally rip alive live baby animals and feast on their flesh while they move.
Had nothing to do about the adaptive nature of teeth. But okay! It's whatever you say, after all!!
No. 250367
Well for anyone who's a pescitarian in this thread and thinks eating "wild caught" salmon is a good choice, allow me to share this video with you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTCQ2IA_ZssHonestly I was a pescitarian myself until I saw this video 3 years back and became a full vegetarian because of it (still can't quite become a vegan though)
No. 250375
>>250346I hate to agree with you but I do. They're in the minority but they are very vocal. I'm part of many small vegan communities online who share vegan foods you can get in my area which is
invaluable information. When someone posts a picture of sweets/biscuits/crisps, there's always that one asshole who will reply and try to control what other people post like
>"Yeah but they have palm oil. You're not a real vegan.">"Yuck! Refined sugar and chemicals? No THANKS!">"Why are you eating this shit when you could be eating fruit and veg?">"I wouldn't put THAT inside my body!" >"This is a vegan page, please only post CLEAN food!"and you know for a fact that they're the type of people who went vegan a few days ago and will only last another few days.
Real vegans who have been on the diet for years do miss little comfort foods like sweets or cheese or junk food. Nobody is implying that anyone eats this kind of thing for every meal, every day and even if they did WHO CARES as long as it's vegan? It makes people less likely to post new, cool stuff they've found out of fear of judgement from these assholes and for anyone new to the pages, it makes veganism look intimidating and like a very unattainable thing when it's actually very fucking easy.
The majority are not like this though, imo.
No. 250513
i wish there was a vegan cows general thread. so many vegans are such huge cows and they turn people away from the movement by being OTT, cringey and embarrassing. the level of infighting between vegans is hilarious and generates tons of milk. Vegan Gains, Durianrider, Freelee, Fullyraw Kristina, Gary Francione, Dan "health regenerator", James Aspey (huge fucking narc, holy shit) and Gary Yourofsky are some of my absolute favorite cows. i don't deny that Gary Yourofsky has done some great work but man, his rants about hating humanity are so OTT and cringe. militant vegans are also hilarious and delusional, all premium cows - they have movements dedicated to destroying the world to end suffering or genetically rewiring carnivores to make them all turn vegan. but even 'regular' vegan activists like Earthling Ed or Wayne Hsuing of DXE are personal cows to me. i also really enjoy watching regular sane vegan youtubers slowly morph into militant psychos over time. anyway yeah, i would love to have a thread for all of the vegan cows out there, anyone else agree?
No. 250567
>>250385Where was praise asked for?
I came in hoping for discussion of the things brought up like beekeeping, and the possibility of widespread transition to small-scale farming/homesteading, or how relationships between vegans and meat eaters don’t have to be emotionally charged hate festivals.
I can not be a vegan and still agree with some ideas and ideals held by vegan people, and not be an asshole to people because of what they do or don’t choose to eat like a grown up. Behaving like this just puts people off the entire discussion, when there’s a lot to gain opposing sides discussing ideas.
No. 250786
>>250668As a viable compromise as opposed the the all-vegan-or-you’re-Satan approach? Yeah. I’d love to know how emotionally mature vegans feel about meat eaters at least transitioning to less harmful approaches considering only idiots think the entire world can become vegans yesterday and only maintain their current lifestyle because they love torture. I’m very interested in discussing animal welfare and think that even if we can’t agree on eating meat we can all agree that factory farming is bullshit.
I’m curious how vegans feel about collecting unfertilised eggs from hens who roam the yard rather than a battery farm, or about collecting milk from a cow who’s calf died, or shearing sheep that will die without being shorn. There’s a million miles of grey area and not all vegans are in your black and white camp.
Veggie gardening, thoughts on keeping goats to remove/reduce weeds instead of pesticide, beekeeping for crop pollination, keeping a couple of bulls to keep our paddocks cropped. Raising sheep for wool, alpacas as wool sources or herd guardians. There’s a million aspects to farming that aren’t animal based or involve animals who aren’t used for meat, milk, leather, wool, or fur.
No. 250845
I love how there are complaints about righteous vegans
>>34658, yet there are righteous meat eaters that have to argue how bad not eating meat is.
Like why do you care so much? It's just my diet, and like all diets I do it cause it makes me feel good.
P.S. Plant based diet is one that is mostly plants but you can cheat on special occasions,
which is the healthiest diet if the average person.
No. 250874
>>250786>meat eaters at least transitioning to less harmful approachesThat's good and should be encouraged. Problem is a lot of meat eaters want to be coddled for not eating meat one day a week and it gets tiring, most vegans don't really have the patience to do that anymore. I tried to smile and say "cool" when a guy told me he only eats eggs from his grandma's hens, but at the same time I knew that he still buys processed food that have regular eggs in them, so I found it pretty hypocritical. Most of the time those "I'm doing good too!" brags are just meant to avoid questioning their entire lifestyle.
>collecting milk from a cow who’s calf diedDrinking another specie's milk is pretty gross. I'd milk her so she doesn't get swollen tits, but no need to keep the milk…
Plus unless we're talking about a cow in an animal sanctuary, cows are usually owned and bred with the intent to use them so the situation you're talking about (a vegan being hesitant to drink a cow's milk bc it will be waster) is extremely rare.
>shearing sheep that will die without being shornSheep need to be shorn because we domesticated them so much they don't molt like they did in the wild. Shearing a sheep for its health is pretty much the same as trimming a dog's hair. What you do with the hair then is up to you, I mean some people make crafts with hair cats shed. It's not a very complex question here, the issue with wool is that in some instances workers shear the animals violently enough to rip skin out, and animals can be treated with very little care.
>beekeeping for crop pollinationYou can keep bees without harvesting their honey - it would actually save a lot of trouble to just let them have their honey instead of needing to replace it with a substitute.
I think it's the end there are two issues with the topic:
First, most vegans are never faced with the need to "exploit" an animal, because most vegans live in cities, and don't have the means of space to raise animals. So the situations you're asking about only seem like ways to make some vegan anons say "oh yes I would exploit an animal in this particular situation, maybe I'm not vegan at all, you're right it's fine to use animals"
Secondly, while it's good to be less wasteful, if you eat meat you're still taking an animal's life unfairly. Would you eat a deceased human and use their skin to make leather and their hair to make coat stuffing, just because you don't want to waste resources? Asking about "but would you wear a sheep's wool if he told you it's fine" is totally diverting from the topic at hand, which is that killing animals is not a very nice thing to do and is unnecessary to most people in the first world.
I agree, if there was only animal exploitation in backyards at very small scales, and people ate less meat, it would be better. But most people can't afford to own even a backyard, so I'd rather promote being vegan.
(Hope this is coherent)
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No. 257759
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confession time;
I know being vegan is the moral thing to do, its abhorrent how we treat animals.
Yet im a selfish piece of shit that cares more about how i look and feel than that.
When it becomes the standard, like how slavery ended etc, and everyone is gonna look back and gasp at how things were "back in the day" i'll feel even more like shit.
No. 257782
>>257769It depends on people, I think it's just easier to stay vegan if you have somewhat of an emotional attachment to the animals.
But honestly I don't know any vegan who thinks all animals have the same degree of consciousness and intelligence… The main reason to stop eating fish is that fishing wrecks ecosystems and destroys the ocean.
>>257759I don't get how caring about how yu feel and look can prevent you from changing your consumption? I went vegan because I didn't want to feel like a hypocrite. I look better now because I have much less skin problem after cutting dairy, and I can eat a lot and feel full without gaining weight.
Not saying it would be the exact same for you but I fail to see how those preoccupations would make you want to not even try to be a vegetarian.
No. 257798
>>257769This is sort of long and scientists haven’t reached a consensus (heh, do they ever?) but this is a somewhat recent article about fish feeling pain. Of course, it’s hard to tell how aware they are. Sure, they’re not as intelligent as say, a pig or a cow, but they’re animals too. I just feel like it’s better to be consistent than to have any exception for any animal that’s considered “lesser than.”
Although I should probably revoke my vegan card, because I don’t see much wrong with honey. I don’t eat it, personally, but I don’t think it’s exploitation.
No. 257800
>>250874I know it’s just going to sound too edgy but I honestly would be okay with the use of my own skin once deceased as leather, as well as the skin of other people. Corpses don’t need it, and it would supply leather.
On topic- it seems like if you aren’t vegan, making any efforts to reduce animal consumption or to consume more sustainable, less harmful products isn’t good enough, and any discussion of it is just praise-mongering not a genuine interest. This clearly doesn’t apply to all people who are vegans, but it seems as if there’s no discussion that’s safe from one or two people insisting it’s a dichotomy.
No. 257816
>>257800Well, honestly, it is annoying when people come to vegan spaces (I don’t know if I even consider r/vegan a vegan sub anymore) and talk about, “Well I’m not vegan but I stopped eating beef two days ago!” And, “I only eat the following types of meat now: rabbit, duck, venison…”
Like, cool, you stopped eating some types of meat. Do you want a cookie? It’s great that you’re taking a baby step, but honestly, you’re barely making any sacrifices and I don’t understand why you want to act like a martyr or that you’ve made some huge change when…you haven’t.
People who actually do meatless Mondays or actively try to reduce their consumption without trying to get ass pats and karma on reddit are tolerable. But people who expect some praise or encouragement for not shoveling bacon into their maw everyday and don’t want to actually discuss veganism as a diet choice or a lifestyle need to get out of vegan groups.
No. 257824
>>257816Where have I acted like a martyr, asked for praise, or otherwise offended you so badly for you to just jump onto ad hominem bullshit?
You’re making my point about overly preachy vegans demanding a false dichotomy.
A thread discussing the pros and cons of veganism isn’t a sage space for vegan-only content, so your gatekeeping argument is moot.
Why can’t I discuss reducing meat consumption, and cruelty-free farming practices I’m curious about for my own farm?
Why can’t anybody ask questions or discuss the positives of reduced consumption without you getting pissy and starting to call names like we’re seven and on a playground?
No. 257826
>>257823Not that Anon but it just gets jarring. When I see posts like these in vegan groups and I'm in a good mood I'll be happy about it and post some encouraging comment and if I don't care about it I'll ignore.
Honestly the ones online bragging in their own posts are okay because you can ignore them, it's just when people are insistant to get praised or derailing conversations to say that not eating beef is better than nothing at all (when in reality even as a vegan I still need to make a lot of efforts on my habits, so I don't think I deserve backpats) that it's annoying.
No. 257829
>>257828Don’t know why you’re reduced to calling people names because they’re making positive choices you dislike.
I mean, you came in here guns blazing to shit on anybody who makes small changes and wants to discuss it, and bitching about reddit as if that’s relevant.
Maybe get down from the high horse and stop assuming anybody who doesn’t become a hardcore vegan is a posturing asshole.
Other people trying to make better choices isn’t part of your problem with a subreddit.
No. 257831
>>257825>all animal products, not just some.I live a basically vegan life inside my home, but not outside because it’s too restrictive for my lifestyle/social life so I just go by vegetarian. But this is exactly what I was talking about in
>>257803It’s this weird heirachal supperiority. Raw vegans think they’re superior to ethical vegans who think they’re better than dietary vegans/plant-based who think they’re better than vegetarians. I don’t think I’m better than a pescatarian, I don’t think I’m making a sacrifice over them. I enjoy being a vegetarian, I’m proud. I’m not bitter or trying to cut others down. It’s not a competition, it’s not a pity party of who gave up the most. And I’m happy when my meat-eating friends enjoy my
vegan home cooked food. And I’m honored when friends give up meat for a day because I’ve shown them it’s easier than they think to do.
>People expecting praise just for giving up bacon? Please. That’s just asinine. It’s like people expecting praise for simply saying that they’re going on a diet and not actually eating less.Except they are eating less, they gave up bacon. That might have been a daily food for them, it might have been a treat they really looked forward to. You view things through the lens that their effort isnt enough and they’re just talking about it to get praise. Do you just talk about veganism to get praise? I hope not.
No. 257832
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>>257831And to continue because I want to make it clear: I’m vegetarian because I don’t want animals or this planet to suffer. I use mostly vegan products because I don’t want animals to suffer. I eat mostly vegan meals because I don’t want animals to die, be pumped of milk, or tortured. I don’t eat any meat at all because I honestly can’t stomach it while knowing it’s journey to my plate. Knowing my life is causing less suffering now than it did before is it’s own reward. Every meal I have that is vegan is a good thing, even if I don’t live a vegan “lifestyle.” Every product I use that wasn’t tested on animals or created from their beings is a good thing. And that goes for other people too.
The reward for being vegan isn’t having a subreddit, it’s not having “pats on the back,” it’s not superiority over others, or feeling like you’ve made a masochistic sacrifice. It’s a good thing of itself. The reward is knowing you didn’t eat a living creature’s body that day. It’s knowing you didn’t contribute to an industry that is cruel. It’s the peace of knowing you did your best to cause less harm.
When people say they’re going a day without meat, I feel relief, not judgment. When they say they’re no longer eating bacon, I feel glad for all the little piggies, not bitter about my own sacrifices.
Not everything is a competition. Not everything has to be exclusive. The larger the “vegan” community, the better. The more people making a positive change, even a relatively small one, the better.
Bitter, resentful, exclusionary reactions are why the vegan community has the reputation today that it has earned. One of toxic, angry, and judgmental people who will never be satisfied.
Don’t you want the most positive change? Don’t you want the most lives saved? Or is this just about you and your “spaces” and being able to talk to other people you deem worthy?
No. 257835
>>257832Your points make me wonder how many people out there with the ‘my way or get fucked’ attitude would have jumped onto literally any bandwagon that gave them a means of feeling morally superior?
Normal people who are vegan are capable of discussions, don’t expect exclusionary safe spaces, and don’t create a fake hierarchy where only the most dogmatic may speak. With these guys It’s like some sort of religious law.
No. 257836
>>257769>fish are basically plantsBut they're not? Firstly, if vegans ate no meat except for fish it would be hypocritical and we'd have even more critics so idk why you'd even consider that an option.
Do fish have brains? Yes. Do fish have a nervous system and nerve endings? Yes. Do fish have a desire to survive? Yes. Is it inhumane to keep fish in a fish farm? Yes. That's
all I need. I don't need to know to what extent they feel pain or how big their brain is because if there's an inkling that they do feel pain, I wouldn't eat them.
Do plants have brains? No. Do plants have nervous systems? No. Do plants have a desire to survive? Yeah, they do and that's why I have a lot of respect for them but plenty of plants actually want us to eat their fruit/veg to spread seeds so I don't feel guilty consuming them. Can I say with certainty that plants don't feel pain? Yes. I'm really not sure why that topic comes up so much from meat-eaters though, the "but plants feel pain too!" one. I'm not sure if it's something they hope will stump us or if they're genuinely retarded and think they actually do have brains and nerve endings.
Also honey is not consumed because again, it would be hypocritical but also I believe it's inhumane. When the bees notice that some of their supply is gone, they freak out at the loss and work on trying to replenish it. Keep in mind that it takes 7 to 12 bees their entire lifetime to produce a teaspoon of honey. When you remove an entire section of the hive to make honey, how many bees did it take to make that? Really puts it into perspective why it's such a huge loss for them. Plus in order to stop the hive from swarming, queen bees are killed.
No. 257838
>>257836What?
Bees that are swarming are either attacking or moving to a new nest location, so why would anyone kill the queen?
No. 257839
>>257823>But how does their presence infringe?How much does it annoy you when someone comes here to lolcow and starts a post with "Hey, I'm a man and my opinion is…"?
I'm part of a lot of private vegan fb groups and they're full of people who want to help and support each other. Everyone is really kind and work hard to share new products, make maps of vegan shops/restaurants in the area and make these big, long posts of advice for others. I appreciate it so much. It's nice to be able to scroll through and see recipes I can actually make or pictures of products I can actually buy instead of shitty Buzzfeed recipes where everything is wrapped in bacon or giveaways I can't enter.
It's annoying when someone comes into that space to ask you a question you've already been asked 1000s of times in your life and have answered 1000s of times. Like they haven't bothered doing their own research so why do you owe them a second of your time??? Or to get notifications for a troll post, even. How many times have you been asked in your life when you're going to have kids or get married and how many times have you had to explain that you're not ready yet or you don't want kids? How many times has someone questioned your career choice and you had to defend it? How many times has someone ignorantly made an assumption about your culture, someone who hasn't bothered even googling their question and you've had to explain it to them?
That's why it's annoying.
No. 257840
>>257836There are ethical sources of honey which positively contribute to the local fauna and flora.
https://friendsoftheearth.uk/bees/honey-ethical-guidehttps://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/jun/17/ethical-living-eating-honey-lucy-siegle>Hives managed properly (such as those harvested during spring as advocated by the naturalbeekeepingtrust.org) and products from local hives (buy local, non-blended honeys) should help landscapes to flourish.>Honey is also the least gas-guzzling sweetener we have. Beets and corn (processed into fructose syrup) are spectacularly energy intensive in growth and production, and cause a plethora of ethical problems.>Conscientious consumers need to understand the amazing product that honey can be and say no to cheap, imported products. If ethical consumers all disappear up a moral cul-de-sac, the bees have a problem.If being vegan is just about the label, then sure, don’t consume honey. But if it’s about bettering this planet and the lives of all creatures on it, considering supporting your local beekeepers to help them continue their ethical, sustainable practices. And if it’s about not being “hypocritical” oh boy do I have some bad news for you.
No. 257841
>>257832Again NAYRT but you sound like a Disney princess. Not everyone has the patience and naivete to get happy about every little step in the right direction by strangers on the internet.
I don't get why everyone is so
triggered, Anon didn't say that she wants all non-vegans to fuck off and go back to eating bacon, just that it's frustrating when someone who does one little efforts asks for praise from an entire group. I don't think it was meant for you personally.
You're right in a sense because every little action taken wrongly by a non-vegan will be super exaggerated so they can say "lol vegans are so mean/preachy/angry all the time!" but in reality it takes quite a bit of patience to act nice all the time.
No. 257843
>>257838If the queen bee dies, they'll usually swarm and find a new location which isn't convenient for beekeepers. So they can kill the queen and replace it with a new queen bee in order to prevent swarming.
Swarming would mean the beekeeper could lose their bees. Something a beekeeping friend told me.
No. 257845
>>257841It’s not naive to have a positive outlook.
The reputation vegans have is because of this kind of exclusionary shit, it’s not random. It’s because vegans think they’re these super patient, woke Gods who don’t have time for ignorant meat eaters. They get pissed at other people even trying to cut back on meat and asking for encouragement or advice because it’s not a “big enough sacrifice” or whatever.
>exclusionary >judgmental >superiorority complex >angry >extremeEtc, are all stereotypes for a reason.
If you go on /r/fitness as a chubster and ask for advice they don’t freak out going “get out! Fit people only! You’re so annoying, you think doing daily push ups means you deserve to be in our space. This is a
lifestyle. You don’t belong here.” Cause that would be fucking dumb
No. 257846
>>257841Why is wanting to discuss reduced consumption praise seeking to you people?
It’s not about wanting your personal approval, it’s people wanting to discuss changes they are making in their life. Get over yourself.
No. 257848
>>257842Kinda like you can just ignore that I find people who want praise for making the tiniest changes annoying? I even said that it’s great when people ACTIVELY consume less and do their part. But why do they want praise for it? I don’t see them going to vegetarian communities with this, either. I’m sorry that expressing one annoyance was enough to set you off and go on a long tirade about everything you do that’s cruelty free (assuming you’re the anon with the cute piggy pic.)
We can discuss this without vitriol and without trying to make this thread a hugbox. I’m happy to hear out people’s grievances against vegans. I get an ear full of it all the time, but I’m happy to discuss. But dude, people can find things annoying! That doesn’t make them evil.
No. 257851
>>257848Why won’t you answer why you insist it’s praise seeking? Do you really think that as a group, vegans are so important or influential that random people desperately want their approval?
Tbh it seems like you’re an asshole, not just about veganism, but in general.
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Relevant
No. 257853
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No. 257854
>>257847Okay well then you need to understand the environment we have. A lot of these groups are for people starting off to ask for advice. So when someone asks a question like "Why don't vegans eat fish?" it's met with answers, nobody tells anyone to get out. So when someone turns out to be a troll, it's really disappointing that like 20 people have put effort into making posts about how they feel and providing links to studies and coming up with suggestions for meals a newcomer might like. Do you understand now?
>>257849Sorry, but that's just not what goes on!
No. 257858
>>257851Why else randomly post in a vegan community about giving up one thing, if not to seek praise? I don’t understand any other reason behind it if there’s no other context (which has been the case.)
These aren’t people who are asking how they can make changes or do substitutions or where they can start. These aren’t people who are talking about subbing one meal a day for a vegan meal or no longer drinking milk. I asked about making changes when I was new. I found that people were really helpful! But I also find that the tough love approach is helpful, and others might not like that.
Why does it upset you so much that one insignificant person on a planet of billions, finds something annoying?
No. 257861
>>257858So you can’t comprehend that people might enjoy discussion, in a thread about discussions how veganism has impacted you, on a website not designated as a vegans only hug box?
This thread is not a vegan community.
Someone saying ‘vegans have taught me about how bad factory farming is, so I have stopped purchasing factory farmed meat/eggs and reduced my animal consumption overall. Is xyz as cruelty-free as I think it is?’ is only praise seeking to you, and other holier-than-thou people who choose to be negative and push people away from any interest in veganism, rather than move on with your day.
It’s immature gatekeeping and a large part of why vegans are seen as a joke, rather than having some very legitimate concerns.
No. 257864
>>257858I agree with you, anon. I don't think it's praise they're looking for but moreso validation. When they make posts like "I gave up red meat!" or "I only hunt!" or "I locally source my beef!" they're hoping someone will come along and say "Yes, you're doing the exact same thing as vegans are. That's so ethical. That's so good for the environment. Well done. You don't need to give up meat, you really showed them. You're so educated."
But the problem is, you're not going to get that kind of praise from vegans who why come to a vegan thread to be like "Someone! Please tell me that my diet is good and I'm a good person so I can sleep at night!" Vegans generally start off as vegetarians. Giving up red meat isn't the same as giving up red meat, poultry, fish and crustaceans all at the same time so why should a vegan/vegetarian be impressed? Reducing your meat/animal product intake isn't impressive because we eat far too much of it anyway. People eat them for three meals a day so coming out and being like "I'm doing meatless Mondays!" and expecting a "Well done!" is a bit fucking much lmao.
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Suck it, vegetarians. The vegan agenda is WINNING.
No. 257868
>>257864I can’t believe you people still think anyone making less harmful choices is just begging you for your praise and approval like you’re special.
Goddamn, as a group you are some of the most pretentious, uppity, self-appointed moral police since christians.
No. 257881
>>257876A discussion on what impact that realistically has, a discussion on further reduction of consumption of animal products, a discussion about meat or animal product free meals or cooking tips, a discussion about how people have gone about reducing and removing animal products from their lives and at what rate they did so, a discussion about why the person decided to reduce their consumption, a discussion about things people have found difficult to give up or find non-harmful replacements for.
It’s unreal how mad you are about people listening to and trying out your way of life. It’s clear that for some, veganism is a status symbol and high horse to ride on, as opposed to an actual ethical or health concern.
No. 257900
>>257896Sure Jan.
There’s nobody here saying that everyone who doesn’t convert to total veganism are only seeking praise and attention. Nobody jumps on them as virtue signaling.
Nah you get told off and shit on because the loudest vegans don’t want anyone else to harm fewer animals, they want to pay each other’s backs and masturbate their ego some more. Nobody else is allowed to talk about anything other than how much better than everyone they feel they are.
No. 257927
>>257902Most meat eaters are actually extremely picky eaters. Like I have friends who will go into a place and order a burger with no sauce, no onions, no lettuce and no tomato. So just a bun and a slab of meat. Or they'll go to a foreign food place and complain about the vegetables in their dish, pick them out and leave them on the side. I went to a Japanese place with friends and they ordered a bento box, ate the teriyaki chicken and rice and then asked if I wanted to eat their salad, grilled veg, miso soup and sushi because they all contained veg they weren't familiar with. But they'd call me a picky eater.
Typically, people will have like three favourite veg and they'll never make the effort to try new ones. So mild, "safe" veg like peas, carrots, potatoes, corn and broccoli. If you've trained your mind to think everything else is "gross" and you never get used to the texture or smell of any other veg, It's basically like being a child who gags at the sight of a tomato.
No. 257932
>>257927I know a guy like this, he ONLY eats meat. The only veg he'll eat is carrots but only if it's cooked till disintegrating and in meat juice.
Going out to eat with him is horrid, he pushes anything non meat or bread off his plate and is left with the saddest looking meal ever.
I feel sorry for people like this, i mean you're missing out on so much good food because you're scared of a bit of colour and veg on your plate, gagging at the sight of broccoli is the most embarrassing thing i've ever witnessed.
No. 257940
>>257932>gagging at the sight of broccoli is the most embarrassing thing i've ever witnessed.Semi-relevant but when I was a kid my mom used to make me watch this Gillian McKeith show as a warning to me to not eat shit food haha. The formula is she shows these overweight families what they eat in a week by laying it out on a table (guess what it usually consists of? meat and bread) and then she has them change to a mostly plant-based diet (again she puts it out on the table and it's usually beautiful, colourful veg) and then as a result they lose weight and improve their overall health.
Gillian herself is a bit of a crazy person but I used to love the show and the transformations. The best part was that she had to introduce them to vegetables that they've never eaten and they'd gag or comment on them being gross. How are they any more gross than eating exclusively takeaways for every meal? lmaooo. Still to this day, I think of this one Scottish woman saying "It's very…green" when she sees the table all the time. Like yeah, that's what your food intake should look like lol, a lot of food is green.
No. 257944
>>250379>When feelings and misinformation are removed from the equation, there’s a lot of valid points made by the vegan campIf you wanted to know one of the reasons anons here didn't take kindly to your post is right here. This attitude where you act as if feelings (in regards to the treatment of other living creatures and to he same extent this fucking planet) is somehow childish and negative. (Its also a common generalization alot of people are tired of hearing). Read between the lines, you sound like any other snotty omnivore trying to talk about their ~sustainable~ living which has nothing to do with a veganism thread unless we're allowed to suddenly discuss garbage recycling, general farming which would include slaughtering of farm animals in your little utopia something most in here aren't all about and the list goes on!
Also in regards to misinformation considering an anon literally compared a fish to a plant; id rather see a vegan use the worst example of dairy farming and claim a lesser worse dairy farm does the same than be a fucktard who thinks a being with a brain and a nervous system can equal that of a plant thay thrives through fucking photosynthesis.
No. 258062
>>257944I think the point of that was that when we stop arguing over morals, because it’s not realistic to think people will ever all have matching morals.
When you remove the emotional aspect and don’t take what other people eat as a personal attack there’s valuable conversation to be had. When emotions get involved it gets murky, and conversation dissolved into arguments over how valuable vegans and non vegans find a cows life.
When you factor in ecological issues, economics, healthcare, food deserts, new developments like lab grown meats etc etc etc there are some very viable arguments for veganism that don’t rely on emotions and personal values. That’s more likely to get through to some people than the cruelty of a battery hens life.
No. 258207
>>257782Well, i actually tried being a vegetarian, and i was one for over two years.
I failed because all high protein vegan/vegetarian food doesnt taste good to me, i dont like beans, tofu, seitan etc and getting all my protein from eggs and cheese got pretty tiring after a while.
So, i got pretty sick, went to the doctor, had low iron, protein and a vitamin D deficiency, not that, that had anything to do with vegetarian food, it was because all high protein vegetarian food tasted disgusting to me and i couldnt live that way.
Did like hummus and chickpeas though, yum, but i couldnt force myself to eat it every single day and be ultra aware all the time, so i decided to be a selfish cunt and eat meat again and supplement vit D.
Feeling great physically now, not so much morally though.
No. 258214
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>>257816Seriously?
Yeah maybe you dont feel like their doing "enough" and that they arent "martyrs" like yourself, but atleast its better than nothing at all.
No. 258325
>>258062>When you remove the emotional aspect and don’t take what other people eat as a personal attack there’s valuable conversation to be had.So same thing last anon said repeated with the same generalization but more specific and another trait that does not apply
to me and alot of other vegans and vegetarians because I guess the point just isnt getting through to you unless we bend over and say all vegans are neurotic bitter martyrs who scream feels over realz, the discussion goes devoid of veganism and we start talking about sustainable living period.
Veganism is a devoid of animal products, Nobody said its the right choice to keep this earth moving but it ensures I leave a marginally smaller carbon footprint in the meantime while we figure out best viable options for the future.
(Also lmao at the talk about being exclusionary when on black and white we see the same generlizations about vegans being used compared to just going a tad upthread and seeing that neurotic vegans are in the minority and that we constantly meet meat eaters who need to pick discussions and be overtly difficult while blaming the other party 'vegans have a bad rep, SO exlusionary, miSInfoRMaTIoN)
No. 258364
>>258325So just to be super sure, in a general thread about veganism, you’re not allowed to talk about anything other than being 100% vegan. No discussion of slow changes, no discussion of non-harmful hobby farming practices, no discussion of how veganism has made you start to change allowed.
Just people who have been totally raw vegan since kindergarten may speak in this non-safe space, where anyone can discuss anything related to veganism.
Because it’s attacking you or trolling you or begging you for praise.
No. 258368
>>258364>slow changesWhat changes? Eating less meat doesn't make you a vegan (it doesn't even make you a vegetarian), it just means you're eating less meat. Sometimes I go for a while without eating potatoes but I don't call myself a Jain lmaooo.
If you want to start going vegan, go vegetarian. All of the vegans I know went vegetarian before going vegan. Until then, don't come into a thread telling us that you don't eat shellfish on a Tuesday and expect praise for it.
No. 258373
>>258368Ntayrt but people can make changes without labeling themselves anything. “Slow changes” doesn’t = vegan, or vegetarian. Not everyone is in search of a label to define themselves. This is a general thread about veganism, to discuss its drawbacks and benefits. Not everyone who posts here is in search of becoming vegan. They might just be trying to do small, manageable changes like cutting out diary. Yes, that won’t make them A vegan but they’ll be consuming vegan products.
I don’t get why it’s so hard for people to accept that other people don’t function the same way. I find it stupidly easy to cut out meat (because many of my family are also vegetarian) but it’s more difficult to avoid all byproducts. Some people have a harder time cutting out meat if they still live with their parents or don’t know how to live a healthy, meat-free diet. Or they just move at a slower pace. Why does other people’s small progress offend you? Why do you wanna put it down and belittle it?
No. 263304
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Oof.
No. 263341
>>263304>as long as you consume animal products, you’re not veganThat means literally no one is vegan, then. I honestly doubt anyone who says they live a 100% vegan life. And it makes me wonder if they bring their own soaps where-ever they go. Or if they ask if the crackers with their soup contain whey. Or, when they eat out, if they ask how the (vegetarian burger) buns were made.
Veganism isn’t about 100% reduction. Because that would be literally impossible. It’s about reducing
as much as possible and within reason. Otherwise vegans wouldn’t have vaccines, wouldnt eat anything organic (animal fertilizers), wouldnt use anything with a tire or paint or plastic, etc.
No. 263365
>>263341I agree, to an extent. What’s funny about this screen cap is the “semi-vegan” is definitely a troll—it’s from /r/vegancirclejerk. There’s no way they were being serious. That’s why it’s so funny that they got downvoted.
It’s not like being vegan is an exclusive club that people don’t want anyone else to be part of. Hell, I’d be thrilled if any of my friends or family wanted to take the plunge. I happily encourage people to try it.
That’s why it makes me sad when people are like, “Well I’d never be perfect at it, so why try?” Or “vegans are just too preachy and mean so why should I even bother!?”
No. 267033
>>257759it's ironic because you'd actually look and feel (and smell) better as a vegan but you'd never know until you actually tried it for over a week.. :(
>>257769 vegans don't treat them as "the same". we're smart enough to understand that the levels of intelligence, sentience, and cognizance vary. but… our thing is, that doesn't matter. if it has a nervous system and eyeballs, we don't want to eat it.
>>257853 what kind of people do you think are being forced to work in filthy slaughter houses? what kind of communities do you think the slaughter houses are being built in? veganism is a human rights issue as well. hog farms and their shit cesspits are strategically placed in low income areas. poor "immigrants" are forced to bathe in blood and kill hundreds of thousands of animals which (believe it or not) can actually wear on a person's psyche. i'm sure they'd rather pick a vegetable than thrust a knife into a cow's throat and lock eyes with it as the life drains from it's body…. 70 times a shift.
the cool thing about veganism, is that everyone does it for different reasons. (the planet, the animals, their health, all 3) and everyone has their own approach to the lifestyle and how to go about sharing it with others. one person's approach may open someone's eyes, while it may shut another person down. i don't think vegans should be standoffish with potential veggies or curious omnis but i can understand not having the patience to tolerate them. it's best to calmy engage them if you're capable as to spread the "good word". informing others is nice if they are receptive… but if you're not capable of having civil discourse with people who aren't on the same supreme vegan level as you, then it's best you chill on the advocate part and just focus on improving the world via improving yourself. even if meatless monday'er's DID run up into a vegan facebook group wanting validation - why not give it to them..? it gives them momentum to do better, also it's easy to ignore if ya NEED to. if a cookie and some momentum is what they need, give lil jimmy his gotdamn cookie. just hope that kindness relays to how jimmy views animals in the coming years of his life. safe spaces don't exist anymore now that you can access the internet via smartphone. i remember when the internet as a whole was a safe space lmao
No. 267490
>>267033I was a vegetarian for a long ass time, im talking years, felt like utter shit and looked like utter shit, i’d rather have my health, sorry.
And lmao smell better? It literally makes no difference in that department…
Retards like you makes people think vegans are delusional, the only good arguement is a moral one and a enviromental one, not this purity bullshit based on nothing.
No. 267499
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>>267485Former cheese addict here. Try Miyoko brand cashew products (creams and butters), they taste like the real deal.
However, sad to say that there simply is nothing out there comparable to regular cheese flavor wise. I usually use Daiya brand for shredded cheeses, but it really only emulates texture.
The good news is, after about two weeks of cutting cheese out of your diet, you probably won’t want it anymore. It’s like coming off of crack though. Now whenever I have a little, it leaves me sick for the rest of the day, and makes my face break out.
Good luck my veggie friend!
No. 286434
>>232790Your assumption is wrong. Commercial beekeeping is absolutely not good for bees.
>>232752Bivalve farming
can be done sustainably, but it doesn't mean that it always is. If that's something important to you then it's good to do a bit of research before making a purchase.
>>233321>What supplements do other farmers take?>D3, iron, E, and B complexVery similar to your list, except I don't take E but I do take a garlic supplement. I hope you have enough Vitmin C with the iron you're taking.
>>250346I also have a problem with the vegan community, just not the same one as yours. I hate seeing self-proclaimed
ethical vegans giving vegetarians shit for allowing some eggs and dairy in their diet but then circlejerk over oreos or pringles or other sorts of palm-oil laden junk foods. Also the community-agreed definition of veganism is retarded and a reason that I avoid labelling myself as a vegan.
No. 286445
>>257769You'll rarely see vegans bring up intelligence as a reason they avoid eating meat, mostly it's used to argue with people who rage over dog abuse yet have no problem eating pigs because "farm animals are all dumb and don't understand death anyways".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_fishThere is good evidence to suggest that many species of fish do in fact have the capacity to suffer.
No. 286492
>>233321Been vegan for almost 7 years, I take B12 and D. I get blood tests done regualrly and have never been deficient in anything but those two, the latter mostly because I don't go outside much..
I despise the online vegan community honestly, I find a lot of it to be very holier-than-thou and self-righteous, including shitting on vegetarians and anyone who doesn't go 100%. I used to be in some vegan fb groups and it was just constant infighting every fucking day because someone dared to eat oreos or sat on a horse in their profile picture.