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I fucking hate this pop culture feminism. People know nothing about the subject or just read a couple of tumblr posts and still think their opinions are relevant, and they're not.
The sheer amount of people who have no idea what radical feminism is and just assume things based off the name (hell, >>123071
seems to be one of them) is baffling. I just want my feminism to stop being the current trendy thing, because right now it is the exact same thing as being a gamer gurrl - most aren't into it for real they just want to be part of the cool "subculture".
i agree with radical feminists on a lot of issues tho but they can be cringey. like if you're not a lesbian they'll think you're oppressed. and don't you dare suggest that being a "game gurrl" is a thing or you're a MRA! - this applies to both radfems and libfems.
idk both are whiny and neither fit me
Radical feminism has changed over time. When the majority are cringy college kids that want to eliminate men or see females as vastly superior in a "women can do no wrong" manner it doesn't matter what it used to mean.
You should make a new term anon
>Radfem or Libfem
i'm an intersectional feminist– somewhere in between, but not an extreme.
>Opinion on porn/kinks
i enjoy porn, though not much porn is good for how men view women, but i dont think that will ever change unfortunately. kinks are cool, do what you want, don't subject your kinks onto those unwilling though.
>Opinion on sex workers
sex work will always be a natural thing. unfortunately it's highly criminalized and therefor very dangerous. i've had friends that do sex work and they weren't neccessarily very happy.
>Opinion on trans
i support trans people, and i think feminism should be inclusive of transwomen
>Opinion on men
i love men, but men have been the only gender to have hurt me emotionally, verbally, physically, and sexually continuously throughout my life. it's hard to trust them, as sexist as that may be.
i hate what people currently think of feminism. it's not all misandry and angry, bitter women. some people just want equality.
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don't make me laugh
>>123069>Radfem or Libfem
Definitely Radfem. Liberal feminism is a complete fucking joke. It's not even about women's liberation anymore – it's completely centered around transwomen. I can't even talk about my period or other basic female biology without triggering
>Opinion on porn/kinks
100% against pornography. Countless studies show that porn is not only harmful to women, but it is horribly detrimental to our brains. Our society has a serious porn addiction problem. I probably
wouldn't date anyone who was pro-porn/porn industry or watched it frequently.
As for kinks, I'm generally against any sort of powerplay or ageplay or "DDLG" or any of that other gross shit. Pls love yourselves.
>Opinion on sex workers
Sympathetic, but not completely supportive. Nearly 92% of sex workers would leave the SW industry if they could.
>Opinion on trans
I don't hate them but their ideologies are complete bullshit and make no sense. Gender is a social construct. Gender cannot exist outside of gender roles. It doesn't exist. The brain sex myth has been debunked by science, yet trans people still believe that it's some sort of subjective "inner feeling". Reducing the experience of womanhood to simply a “feeling” only erases the actual struggles placed on actual females. Sex-based oppression is a real thing.
>Opinion on men
I don't hate men. Sure, I'm highly skeptical due to past experiences, but I don't treat them any differently than my female friends.
Pop culture modern feminism is crap.
>>123082>i support trans people, and i think feminism should be inclusive of transwomen
So not men?
Feminism is about equality between sexes you know.
>i hate what people currently think of feminism. it's not all misandry and angry, bitter women. some people just want equality.
well not you obviously
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>>123069>Year of our lord 2016>Being a feminist
Fucking why? I am at a genuine loss. If you are a woman in a first worldcountry, none of us have ANYTHING to bitch about.
>Radfem or Libfem
>Opinion on porn/kinks
I honestly don't give a fuck about either, but if your choices of porn or kinks hurt another person without their consent, you bet your ass that I'll go to town on you.
>Opinion on sex workers
They need protection and help, I'm all for legalising prostitution.
>Opinion on trans
I honestly couldn't care less as long as they're respectful to women who are born with female parts.
>Opinion on men
>Radfem or Libfem
I fall into a bit of both camps. Not too fussed on the naming, just call myseelf a feminist and I'm done with it. Both have issues they need to work around though.
>Opinion on porn/kinks
The porn industry is fucked and needs to be rebooted. I have nothing against porn itself but I'd like it to be a lot more clear and safe for actors and people in it. It's been around for fucking ever, I wish it could be regulated/spoken about like a normal job.
Kinks are fine, just make sure that both are over the age of consent and keep with the BDSM guidelines even if it's super tame/not BDSM; safe, sane, consensual. But also keep it to yourselves/your private blogs, I'm not into scrolling insta and seeing "daddy" culture BS leaking everywhere.
>Opinion on sex workers
Make it legal, keep it regulated, make sure they're safe. Ideally I think brothels should come back so that the workers don't have to go to weird locations, there is some type of security on site, and the people paying have some sort of guarantee they won't be ripped off either.
>Opinion on trans
Go for it, who cares. All trans people I've met irl are normal and just want to live basic lives without being bothered. The ones online are shit but there's shitty people in every community, it's just for the trans community their batshit crazies have taken the mic as the voices of all.
>Opinion on men
Most are weirdly stuck on masculinity/'gender roles' and they need to get over it. Just do what you want to do, 90% of the time no one actually cares. At the same time, don't be an aggressive douchebag. Realize that women aren't there to amuse you or date you. I probably have more to say but that's all I could think of.
tbh I just think gender roles suck, let people dress/act/look how they want. It doesn't affect you in any way and it makes shopping funner because there are more choices for both men and women.
Muslim women and feminists fall into two camps as far as I've noticed. If it's a westernized Muslim girl, like one who was born and raised in the USA or something, she's typically accepted into the feminist movement and treated like the voice of 'liberal Muslims!' while Muslim women from MENA/SEA fall into the 'white saviour complex' part of feminists and they have to be broken free of their 'toxic communities'.
So basically; speak English and from the west = ok! non-English/immigrant/not in the west = must be taught feminism!
first, kudos for using the original rosie the riveter
I'm a radfem/lesfem, ex-libfem.
I'm anti-porn, kink critical, exited sex worker (ecort), pro sex-industry abolition, gender critical/pro-gender abolition.
Generally distrustful of men.
I believe "man" and "woman" are biological realities and not identities, meaning "adult human male" and "adult human female", respectively, so woman is to human as doe is to deer.
I'm ex-trans, still dysphoric about my breasts, and would like to remove them. Identifying as nonbinary actually made me more dysphoric. I realized it was okay to exist as a gender-nonconforming woman, and trans ideology is actually regressive
I don't know what's so wrong with existing as a gender nonconforming woman or man, like JD samson or Jeffree Star, why people are equating stereotypes (makeup, sports, empathy) to gender. Can't they see it's not progressive?
She gets points for being an oppressed brown person so that allows for a smoother entry into the hierarchy of victimology.
There are parts of the world where people would laugh at the idea brown Arabs are some sort of oppressed group though.
I only found out a few days ago a lot of Berber ethnic groups despise Arabs in North Africa.
>>123094>non-English/immigrant/not in the west = must be taught feminism!
I also don't agree with this. When those FEMEN idiots started doing the same shit they do in Russia/Ukraine/Europe to Muslims as they do to Christians, most of the mainstream feminist sites (jezebel, feministing etc) criticized them harshly.
Weird how it's ok to encouraging raunchy slutty shit among white girls, but it's a no-no to encourage it among hijabis.
>>123103>thinking we need men
anon scientists are very quickly developing ways for two women to have a baby without the need for sperm, it's been done with mice and other animals, men are no longer needed
so if men give up women, i don't really care.
they're a plague and if they leave us alone, that's great
I'd rather die a cat lady than date the typical male. >>123105
A woman being ugly is really the worst insult you can think of? You don't see the irony in implying feminism is worthless but you equal ugly women with 'can't get a bf' aka 'worthless'? O.K. anon.
Feminist have no kids, religious people all have like 7 kids each
Inevitable that feminism will die out, not saying that's good or ad but it's just demographics
>>123106> I'd rather die a cat lady than date the typical male.
Me too. I just don't see the need for having one. The happiest women I know are those that don't involve themselves with men.>>123105
Wow aren't you a crying little twat.
I'm religious and don't have or want kids.
Of course, I also thank feminism for being able to make this choice.
It's possible to be both religious and feminist. Of course, I view feminism as the right to make choices as women, even if those are bad choices lol
>Radfem or Libfem
Libfem? I had to look this up, and am still confused. My opinion is above^>Opinion on porn/kinks
Don't care unless it's illegal or most people would agree it should be. Keep it in the bedroom though…>Opinion on sex workers
Gross. I look down on sex workers for reinforcing that women are sex objects and engaging in impure acts (sex before marriage, likely drugs and alcohol). I look down on men who visit sex workers too though.>Opinion on trans
Transexuals make me uncomfortable even though I feel ashamed of this feeling and am trying to get over it. I think it's because the media shows them as hypersexualized, wild, and treating their bodies like sex objects after obtaining sex changes. Despite my feeling which I am trying to change for the better, I think they should have equal rights and not be given problems.>Opinion on men
In my opinion, men from western/feminist countries treat women like shit in comparison to men from developing/2nd world countries. American men often expect the wife to work, cook, clean, and raise kids. Also, they act like paying for a meal is a big deal. From what I've observed, a lot feel like after the 1st date, they should only take a woman out to nice places and buy her stuff on anniversaries/valentines etc…and even then, many "forget" or buy stuff for themselves instead kek I really think this is because of the crazy feminists who can't distinguish "men can smoke, drink, fuck strangers, act loud, curse" so a feminist = should do these things, rather than "hmmm, sure women CAN legally do these things, but it's shameful so they shouldn't" I've heard a lot of people say, "but foreign men beat their wives and treat them like slaves. Western men treat women like equals". Sure, like I really want to work, cook, clean, and then pay 1/2 a meal (and hardly even go out). Also, lots of western men from the feminist countries beat their wives (that is, if they even marry them…). At least all my boyfriends from these "awful" countries took me out and paid for everything (because they think its prideful), carried my shit, drove me around, opened doors for me, took me on vacations, and bought me frequent presents. Fuck, I even got allowance or they would pay for my family/friends too. Also way more romantic than "superior" western men. Of course there are exceptions, but this is my general experience.>Extra opinion
Feminist who flash their tits and call themselves "sex positive" are the worst.
It's a sad thing that has allowed women to destroy civilization, and destroy their own femininity with it.>>123112>American men often expect the wife to work, cook, clean, and raise kids
You can thank feminism for this. Before feminism women weren't expected to enter the workforce, you were just expected to take care of a house/kids, and have sex with your husband, how horrible!
Now we live in an economic climate where dual-income households are often a necessity, however a large part of the reason jobs pay so little is because labor has been devalued by women entering the workforce, among other things of course like technology/automation and immigration (which women push for, if women weren't allowed to vote we wouldn't have the entire western world destroyed by third-world immigration right now).>>123070> they have more than a pussy, if they wanted to they could do something else, like whatever the poor men who need money do
The large majority of homeless people are men for a reason. This isn't just because a woman can go be an actual prostitute, but because most normal relationships are also a form of prostitution. The large majority of relationships would end if the girl started refusing to have sex.>>123087>Gender cannot exist outside of gender roles. It doesn't exist. The brain sex myth has been debunked by science,
Women on average have lower IQs than men, and they are psychologically different due largely to purely biological differences. The fact that women are actually capable of believing something as ridicolous as what you do is proof of it.(USER HAS BEEN PUT OUT TO PASTURE)
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> i hope to be like this too. can't really see myself with a man, not really interested in any kind of relationship. it's always awesome to see single women (especially ones planning to stay single) having fun and living a good life.
I feel the same. It is incredibly refreshening to see women that are happy and don't give a monkey's fart what others think, and all of them seem to be highly intelligent and successful. I was often depressed because I couldn't relate to what others thought was great (being in relationship, eventually marrying, having a little life etc.) and meeting women that I strive to become like was a much needed boost. I'm currently focused on my career and I like that I can plan out everything to the smallest details. I have troubles connecting with others too so in the end I have bunch of acquaintances and not a group you could call friends, but I'm happy with my current arrangements because it gives me more time and sufficient energy to dedicate myself to side projects and hobbies. I hope you find happiness in whatever choice or path you decide to pursue, just make sure your choices are indeed yours and not made under pressure of others.
> sometimes i really just want to tell them they don't need a man but to get their shit together.
I think a lot of women find it easier to go with the flow and follow the traditional path, especially since not only men but women also like to reinforce the idea that a woman's happiness lies in marriage and having kids. You can't convince them otherwise so it's better not to meddle in their affairs as it backfires at you more so than it helps them.
> and i'd love a cat too.
Yesss, cats are awesome :3
>>123115> efore feminism women weren't expected to enter the workforce, you were just expected to take care of a house/kids
It's obvious you never studied history books because if you did, you would know that women(the poor ones) worked in harsh conditions from the dawn of time, albeit in less dangerous conditions than men (not working in mines, going hunting) which doesn't render their work any less valueable.
Add to that women had less mobility, less rights (no right to posses property being the most important one), domestic abuse was common… so whenever someone starts with women had it fanfuckingtastic in the past, you can obviously tell an uneducated retard. I doubt women would have demanded their rights if they had it so cushy.
> because labor has been devalued by women entering the workforce
If it weren't for women, it would be the immigrants. The demand for cheaper workforce will always be there and women entering the workforce was bound to happen sooner or later. Come up with something better than capitalism then. You might as well ask for the austrian hungarian empire back while you're at it.
> Women on average have lower IQs than men
Wish there was a sage option in cases like these.
>>123119>If it weren't for women, it would be the immigrants.
And if it wasn't for women being able to vote, we wouldn't have a migrant problem.
> I doubt women would have demanded their rights if they had it so cushy.
Women have had it both cushy and bad throughout various time periods and places in history. Women were not mistreated at every place and point throughout history, however at most points in history women have had political power restricted from them, and that's not treating them bad, it's for the same reason you wouldn't let children play with sharp objects.
Anyway women have demonstrated that even if they receive a more privileged place in society over men (what they have right now in the western world), they will STILL constantly keep on whining and claiming to be "oppressed".
And while I can agree that's annoying, consider the flip side that housewives frequently get disapproving comments from 'career orientated' women who think they're stupid despite the fact that I'm willing to bet most housewives did have careers before they decided to have children and take care of them. It's not easy either way. Your way or the other route. But, that's the thing, everyone is looking it from their perspective and the 'woe is me and my issues' way instead of considering the other side.
Also, the way you worded it made it sound like women are just manipulated into wanting to be mothers by men.
>>123121> And if it wasn't for women being able to vote, we wouldn't have a migrant problem.
Do you really think that corps and megabusinesses care about what the masses want? While it is true that women are more prone to vote pro immigration on average, cheaper workforce would have been achieved one way or the other. Take for example outsourcing, more of a problem than immigration imo and nothing to do with political vote. And if you're referring to what's happening today with immigration in Europe for example, I haven't found women to be any less angry about it than their male cohabitants, unless you base your experience on cherrypicked images from certain parts of the internet.
> however at most points in history women have had political power restricted from them, and that's not treating them bad, it's for the same reason you wouldn't let children play with sharp objects.
Yes, Elisabeth I, Catherine the Great, Empress Theodora, Maria Theresia etc. were all capable rulers. Where did you get the idea that women can't pass good judgements, let me guess, internet? Not history books certainly.
> Women have had it both cushy and bad throughout various time periods and places in history.
We cannot know how exactly they really had it. But just looking at the facts that they couldn't posses property and were extremely limited in rights, we know they didn't have it rosy. You wouldn't like to be treated as a piece of furniture, would you now?
It all boils down to class differences but just like sjws you turn everything into identity wars.
Here's a good article that explains more on the subject of ideologies, progressivism and liberalism if you care to read: http://www.hudson.org/research/12219-ideologies-have-consequences>>123122
It's not just housewives that do that, many working women think their lives aren't complete unless you pop out few kids and have a husband that probably won't give two shits about you in 5 years or so. I'm fine with women choosing whatever they want, in fact, I'm fine with both men and women making decisions for themselves just don't be so vocal about it. Since women that decide to be single and focus on work go against the majority, it is rarer for me to see someone agreeing with me. It was extremely helpful for me to meet such women because I see more often than not women that want to stay single being attacked.
> Also, the way you worded it made it sound like women are just manipulated into wanting to be mothers by men.
Wasn't my intention.
Yeah I'm the same way when it comes to feminism. I don't really like it and it's better to just let people do what they want. If a woman wants to be a housewife i say go for it. Sometimes I admire them more than working women cause taking care of a lot of kids and keeping up with housework/budgeting is a lot of work. My mom was the housewife type and after helping her a few times, I can say it's something that by no means should be frowned upon.
Feminist men seem like ass kissers to me and that's all I can say about them honestly.
>>123124>I haven't found women to be any less angry about it than their male cohabitants
Except they are, and the only reason Europe had such permissive immigration laws that allowed it to happen in the first place was because women were allowed to vote.
The only reason that the problem hasn't been stopped is because women are allowed to vote.
>Yes, Elisabeth I, Catherine the Great, Empress Theodora, Maria Theresia etc. were all capable rulers.
We was queens and shit.
I never said there wasn't relatively rare exceptions of female rulers. Also note that it's quite a bit different than the general population of women being allowed to vote.
>But just looking at the facts that they couldn't posses property and were extremely limited in rights,
There was countless different cultures/societies across the world at different points of time throughout history. Not all of them had those conditions, and many of them didn't even have the concept of private property.
>>123126> The only reason that the problem hasn't been stopped is because women are allowed to vote.
Source: your ass
> Also note that it's quite a bit different than the general population of women being allowed to vote.
It's not like men being allowed to vote didn't lead to major disasters in history. Go read through history pages and you will see numerous cases of bad decision making made by your fellow men.
Being an idiot is a human trait not exclusive to women.
> There was countless different cultures/societies across the world at different points of time throughout history. Not all of them had those conditions, and many of them didn't even have the concept of private property.
I was being a eurocentrist and referring mainly to Europe since I'm most familiar with its history where notion of property did exist and it was restricted to women. Not to mention inheritance issues and divorce that were as always unfair towards women. I don't know much nor care about some backward shitholes around the world tbh, call me an ignorant if you will
To end, I don't see the point of furthering this discussion, you have a fixed idea of blaming women for all the evils of the world, akin to an angry feminist blaming men in the same manner. Lets call it quits. Ta-ta
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>Radfem or Libfem
Libfem I guess
>Opinion on porn/kinks
It's fine, both are fine, I don't care
>Opinion on sex workers
Strippers aren't that bad/don't have it too hard. I mainly don't support shit like prostitution, which is pretty fucking dangerous.
>Opinion on trans
I think it's a mental illness but I don't hate them or anything
>Opinion on men
I think modern Buzzfeed/Tumblr feminism is fucking retarded. I don't like to refer to myself as one solely because of the whole current trend of it being basically a fashion accessory
>Radfem or Libfem
Both would have a problem with my views and neither group would probably consider me a feminist.
I've never had problems with the concepts and principles of traditional feminism but I clearly don't belong in trendy tumblr feminism. For example, I don't think video game characters or slut-shaming are worthy subject matters with validity. I also hate how feminism became so intersectional with things like race issues when I fucking despise irrationally biased movements like BLM.
>Opinion on porn/kinks
You know it's odd, I used to argue that watching too much porn can lead to problems and I used to get called a "jealous" female. Now there are literally guys, even on r9k, who are admitting that fapping to porn everyday is causing a lot of dysfunctions and social anxiety about intimacy.
I think watching porn when the urge arises or to satisfy some curiosity is fine. But too much can indicate different problems.
Kinks are fine too but I'm getting upset at people who wear their sexualities on their sleeves. It's like some people are tone-deaf and don't realize anymore that there are times and places to discuss and share kinks.
>Opinion on sex workers
I'm all for legalizing and regulating it, but I don't think sex work is good nor truly empowering. I was taught in earlier feminism that women should be valued for things other than the attractiveness of their bodies. That women can contribute more to society than for sexual gratification and producing babies. Or, if a woman wanted to be sexual it's because she chose to and not because she was financially bound to sucking dick in order to live. It seems like sex work just reenforces the notion that once women are used up in the industry, they're worthless garbage who are on their own.
I argue for oversight and unionization because sex workers aren't often treated right. Since their commodities/value are with their bodies and how well they perform, many work in the now but their future is unclear. Many sex workers become co-dependent on a spouse, or welfare-dependent on the government. They have a limited skillset so when they retire from sex work they have no safety net regarding new employment, retirement, insurance, or even savings for when they're older. Some wind up hooked on drugs or in prison. Some only take on sex work to get through college or to make extra money, which is okay. But I feel that many impressionable girls are led to believe that the majority of sex work is "easy street" in terms of money and lasts for a long time. It's so far from the truth the way sex work is, and it's a horrible idea to base income solely on sex work.
It's so unstable and has the potential to harm someone. I wish people cared about this issue more past the superficial "HURR NO SLUT SHAMING!" level. It's deeper than that.
>Opinion on trans
Part of my graduate thesis was on trans memoirs. Based on my readings, their behavior definitely leaned more towards mental illness. However I still think MtF identities are valid under the branch of feminism, even if it's that brand of super performative femme. I'm undecided about FtM but I know their struggles with transitioning are often about society shunning them for giving up their biological duties to reproduce, which goes back to that notion of society rejecting women who seek intimacy that isn't intended for reproduction. It's highly offensive.
Wanna know another contradiction of pre-2010 feminism? Many don't/didn't support trans people until it became popular to do so. During my undergraduate studies I performed in The Vagina Monologues, and one monologue was specifically about characters who were MtF. When I asked why we weren't getting trans women to join our production, I was told "ONLY WOMEN ALLOWED" and to shut up about it. I wasn't popular in the feminist sphere so my voice went unheard. A few years after tumblr got trendy, producers started letting our first MtFs into the play to take on trans roles. It made absolutely no damn sense to me until I realized many "feminists" only care about being liked, not doing what common sense would dictate is appropriate.
>Opinion on men
No beef on men.
Any abuses I've suffered from male figures I've realized have easily happened with female figures. The problem at large is society and culture, not the genders. I think men have benefited from feminism in fact.
Thought I do so wish more men realized feminism is a blanket term for subgroups with many different views about advocacy. Just because someone identifies as feminist doesn't make them an unreasonable bitch who isn't interested in listening to opposing views.
I think the draft is wrong and sexist. I don't believe any modern country has a right to force citizens of any gender to go to war.
I believe alimony is an outdated practice, and unless in the marriage contract certain protections were agreed to, then it should not be honored otherwise.
Divorce court and child support settlements are highly biased to favor the biological mother over the father and that needs to be fixed.
I loathe the term "slut-shaming" and it's unironic use. I don't think derogatory words like "slut" should ever be reclaimed, or even acknowledged. It's an irrelevant term used by old society to imply any woman who enjoys sex must also be unclean and incapable of forming healthy relationships for the fact. It's not sexy, it's not witty, and it's not nuanced. It's plain ugly and I can't believe it gained so much momentum via "slut walks" and the like.
This was never "our" word and no self-respecting woman should want it around. It's not a word that reminds me of all my pleasurable intimacies, or how I'm free to make my own sexual choices. It's a word that reminds me that some pious twat is judging me for what I choose to do behind closed doors.
Not only that, but "slut-shaming" has leeched onto other issues that have nothing to do with it. Like abortion. Abortion is a valid medical procedure and a necessity in modern society, not a statement about someone's sexuality.
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>>123069>Radfem or Libfem
the one that would say pic related is bullshit
and the ones that say men can be feminist but not the"beta kind that just fuel feminist"
>Opinion on porn/kinks
I find it funny that some radical feminist have kinks that they themselves say are demeaning towards women so no…
>Opinion on sex workers
people have to do something to make a living… even if this is the best they can do
>Opinion on trans
people just want to be what they think is right
but it shouldn't be forced down everyone throats
>Opinion on men
like wtf even is that bullshit assumption it doesn't even make sense
the wage gap is bullshit
Areas where the rape culture really does exist, "feminist" do jack shit about
3rd wave feminism has for the most part just been bullshit
and if you honestly think that a man can't be a feminist then you're an idiot period
and for the concept consent if they say yes and regret it the day after you can't claim that as rape
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>Radfem, fuck men.
>Porn should stop existing, only drawn porn should be allowed
>Prostitution should be also abolished but there's no way of doing it so nothing against people who are sex workers but I fucking hate pimps and sex industry
>Some are pure fetishists, some are just actual sick people who couldn't help it
I don't understand how someone would say they are "anti feminism" particularly a woman (assuming you are one as this is primarily a woman board). Kind of reminds of those "meninist" girls who boast about hating feminism and are then worshiped by a mass of questionable men(not saying that is you, but the whole stance reminds me of this).
I don't identify as a (just a ) feminist necessarily anymore (I'm not really sure what to call my stance, if anything I'd say I'm possibly both a feminist with a focus on women and also an equal rights "activist" for both genders").
I've very rarely met anyone who identified as a feminist who hated men or treated them badly (like "demons). I don't run in tumblr circles and for the most part anyone I have seen identify as either a feminist or equal rights activist is cool with both men and women.
But to hear someone say they are 'anti feminist" is confusing to me. I don't really get it. I understand being against "tumblr" feminism or something very anti men, but feminism at least and most moderate feminists I have met don't really hold any views that I can see as destructive. In fact, most of them that I know are also interested in helping men in things that men are constantly shit on for.
I will give a small run down of my personal views.
>men and women are both mentally capable of the same tasks>I don't think men should be considered feminine or less of a man for shaving body hair/not having/or having it. Same for women but the opposite (less feminine etc). Body hair is normal/natural although not being attracted to it is a preference and that is ok (personally I don't like having body hair and I remove all of mine but I don't harass people over theirs).>men and women are both equally capable of loving and caring for children. >consent should be taught to everyone>there is nothing wrong with either gender being the "homemaker" or "breadwinner". It does not make someone less of a man or less of woman for being either role.>people can chose to have a "traditional" relationship (man "breadwinner" and woman "homemaker") if they both chose to. Conversely they can chose not to and both are cool as long as it's consensual. >I do abortion should be legal. people will do it anyways (and die) so it should be allowed. I do think however birth control and safe sex should be taught and easily accessible to prevent people having to go through abortion (can me mentally draining for both partners)
I also have to say I do agree with these points you said here:
>Porn and kinks are fine as long as everyone involved their rights are respected and there's informed consent.
Sex workers are okay, as long as it isn't against their will, and their profits aren't stolen by a pimp. >I'm not sure what the right course of action is for gender dysphoria>Men are humans Just like us, not demons.
These just seem common sense to me and most of my friends who affiliate with either feminsm or equal gender rights.
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The problem with Feminism and Egalitarianism is the cold, hard truth that men and women are not equal.
Women are experts in their own fields: (nurturing, raising, and educating quality children, and maintaining the home as a safe haven for your hardworking husband. AKA the only areas of work where Women can actually OUTPERFORM men.)
Modern "Equality" has done nothing but strip women of the qualities that made them extremely valuable to society in the first place. Now modern women are just men with vaginas. (Except less capable version of a man.)
Liberation of women has actually made men respect women LESS, because of the fact the only purpose you serve now is being a walking fleshlight, since the homemaker/nurturer role has been stripped away.
Depression in women VASTLY outnumbers the cases found in men. Wasn't more freedom supposed to make us happy?
>Liberation of women has actually made men respect women LESS>because of the fact the only purpose you serve now is being a walking fleshlight
Women have no value other than sex and cooking amirite ladies??
But srs tho, You can still be a homemaker or a nurturer retard. I personally follow a more traditional relationship role as a woman and I'm happy this way (although not everyone needs to).
you should fix your low self esteem and stop going on /r/redpillwomen
This thread reminds me how much I hate people conflating women "hating" men with men hating women. When women hate men, what do they do? Complain about them and maybe refuse to date/marry them and maybe yell at them for ~holding a door open~. When women hate men, they just want to be left alone by men. Look at the all-female towns in Africa. those women hated/feared men and what did they do? they went and made their own towns without them.
When men hate women what do they do? Pass laws restricting their rights, beat and kill their wives, molest their daughters etc. the two are not equal. When men hate women, they don't want to leave them alone, they want to intimidate or hurt them. There have been a lot of cases of women turning a guy down and him murdering her, or the classic tale of a husband murdering his entire family. I can think of maybe one female serial killer off the top of my head that targeted men, but an innumerable amount of male serial killers that only target women.
And before anyone says women don't do things, yes, they do, but nowhere near as much as men do to women.
But people react to women's "hostility" towards men (which is almost exclusively in words, and not physical actions against men) explosively and act like her words are literally killing men.
>Radfem or Libfem
I don't know what these mean. I'm feminist in the sense that I think living my life on my own terms and working on my own dreams and ambitions is the most feminist thing I can personally do.
>Opinion on porn/kinks
I watch porn sometimes, but I'm working on stopping. I understand how damaging it is on young brains/in large doses and I feel bad about my own porn consumption. I don't know where I stand with kinks as I don't have any of my own. On one hand I wanna say "to each their own" but then some real horrifying shit comes out of the wood works that makes me want to rethink that.
>Opinion on sex workers
Sex worker as in human trafficked/cyclical poverty/systemic exploitation: I think we should be doing as much as we can on all levels of personal, cultural, societal, blah blah.
Sex worker as in tee hee camgirl/I answered a craigslist ad bc I wanna be rich and famous: Fuck off and get a real job.
>Opinion on trans
Not sure, but it seems to me that there are deeper roots than just "I knew I was a boy all along" that should be addressed. Gender reassignment surgery seems like an absolute disaster, so really we should be trying many more other methods before that. I think "gender"/"gender expression" does lie on some kind of spectrum but gender identity shouldn't be a main focus. It exacerbates the issue and when you've got people denying biologic fact there's a huge problem.
>Opinion on men
I don't hate men. I don't even dislike men. I quite like men and I like hearing how they think; I think it's fascinating. That doesn't mean I turn a blind eye when a man does something deplorable, but just because he's got a dick doesn't make me hate him.
I believe in exploring perspectives. >>123146>>123143
From what I've gathered from years of being on the internet, especially on 4chan in particular is that this exists because of a simple idea. Women can live, survive, ~thrive~ without men, more or less. Men cannot absolutely live without women or female presence/attention unless they're gay or absolutely crushed by the reality of their situation that they would prefer to be left alone by everyone.
Even in this modern era men need women to "live". Check out some of these robot threads, the majority of the males are saying that they draw motivation to do well in society because of women, what they want from women, how women in society behave. It's their "biological imperative" to want to achieve more because of women. Whether it's for a woman they are in love with/like/are interested in or the prospect of any of those things occurring. It is likely in part contributed by the traditional model of life up until this point was focused on the male doing well to provide for the female and their young. Many young men online wish to return to the traditional model even though that would mean exponentially more stress/pressure/expectation to succeed placed on their shoulders and perhaps even more competition between themselves and "Chads"; I guess it's a trade off if it meant a possibly higher chance of a nice gal they can come home to.
In turn, your viewpoint may be skewed. Women committing violence against men is simply not talked about, or is not given the same kind of grave acknowledgement as a violence committed by a man against a woman (depending on which society you're talking about). >>123140>women outperform men in cooking>women can't even cook properly even if they could all the best chefs in the world are men (common thought on 4ch/ck/)>women are experts in nurturing, raising, and educating quality children>I was raised by my mom but it ruined my life she taught me to be a pussy and a beta I wish I had a father figure (/r9k/ complaint)>homemaker/nurturer role stripped away>complain about welfare moms who stay at home with their kids (men complain about this)
So which is it???>>123147
I slut shame with no shame. Banging multiple people will not make you any happier imo and makes you look more disgusting in my eyes.
>>123112>At least all my boyfriends from these "awful" countries took me out and paid for everything (because they think its prideful), carried my shit, drove me around, opened doors for me, took me on vacations, and bought me frequent presents. Fuck, I even got allowance or they would pay for my family/friends too. Also way more romantic than "superior" western men. Of course there are exceptions, but this is my general experience.
Jesus Christ, you can smell the yellow fever here from a mile away.
Bitch, if they're paying to take you on vacations they're not the "average" man from a developing country in the first place, they're a wealthy man. And wealthy men in general tend to treat their girlfriends to more than average or lower middle class men. What do you want exactly? Men with low incomes to spend well beyond their needs across multiple lines of credit to service your materialism?
Now, regarding all the weeby stuff about how great foreign guys are and how terrible western ones are - I can only speak from my older brother's perspective but he's well salaried (earns over $200k a year) and he supports his wife and my niece and nephew very well. She doesn't have to work. The difference between you and her is:
- She already had a decent job before they got married. She wasn't looking for a meal ticket in other words and actually had something going on in her life.
- She treats raising kids and looking after a family as serious work. Always makes home cooked meals, grows her own vegetables, makes sure the kids are helped with homework and projects and more. You by contrast seem to view a man as a cheat code to having an easy life and don't seem inclined to actually want to the heavy lifting that's actually involved with being a real housewife.
- They're thrifty despite having money. She doesn't buy expensive handbags and other things every other week because she's just not that kind of person, and she doesn't expect my brother to do that kind of thing for her either. Instead they save, and they're well on their way to owning two properties now.
One other thing: If you think what you're describing about well-off Asian(?) guys spoiling their girlfriends doesn't come at a cost, then you're dead wrong. You can expect your husband to have multiple mistresses, and you'll be expected to put up with it no matter how humiliating it may be (I know one Malaysian Chinese guy who would bring his mistress on holiday with his wife). And your position as a foreign woman will be even lower than that of a native Asian to boot.
Honestly whenever I've seen an Asian couple being "romantic" in public I've cringed internally. It's always some dramatic gesture they saw in a western film replicated verbatim.
Asians aren't romantic people. They marry for convenience, not love.
>>123151>when a gay dude wants to be left alone by girls, he's utterly respected
not in my experience
The average girl doesn't think they can fuck the gay out of gay guys, though. The average guy regularly thinks that their magical dick can "cure" a lesbian. These guys will keep hitting on a girl far far after she has said she is a lesbian for this reason, while most girls will take the hint when a guy says he is gay.
Also, guys will go to lesbian bars to hit on chicks, while when girls go to gay guy bars, it's usually to just have a girl's night out away from creepers, although it is still rude to do, they don't go to mack on gay dudes like straight guys do in lesbian bars.
>>123148>Women committing violence against men is simply not talked about, or is not given the same kind of grave acknowledgement as a violence committed by a man against a woman (depending on which society you're talking about).
Feelings and perspectives besides the point, statistically, men commit more violent crimes than women. In the US, 2014, men committed 80% of violent crimes. Additionally, men commit 90% of homicides.
These are stats from the FBI and U.S. Department of Justice, not "feminazi" associations. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdfhttps://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/persons-arrested/main
It's not such a stretch then that men who hate women are more likely to act aggressively/violently towards them, while women who hate men are more likely to just ignore or avoid them.
Now am I saying every guy is bad, no, definitely not, but I am referring specifically to men who hate women, and women who "hate" men, and I put hate for women in quotes, because clearly women do not, as a group, hate men the way men hate women.
I think it is a social problem to address, in the same way male violence is what needs to be addressed when we discuss school/mass shootings, instead of gun control/mental illness, which glosses over the fact that something like 98% of mass shootings are done by men, and most mass shooters are not even mentally ill (a few are though). This is not innate biological behavior, this is social and cultural problems that need fixing, and I do believe teaching men not to feel entitled/aggressive to women's bodies will help as just one example of what feminism can do to help women and men.
Sorry if I come off pushy or anything, it's just something I am passionate about, but I do try and be respectful.
No, you don't. I don't even really know what I was trying to say, but I was trying to address a different viewpoint that a lot of people seem to hold. I don't know why you pulled that out specifically, it was more of an afterthought. I guess I was actually trying to address that (from the mouths of men–at least online) is that apparently men feel that they need women to survive, whatever "survival" means.
I definitely agree with you that male violence has roots in culture and society; it's why I try to understand men and listen to them (even though most of them are fuckin dumb lbr) because I don't want to perpetuate ideology that creates entitlement or disrespect.
Though, isn't male aggression linked to levels of testosterone? At what point do we draw the line between social conditioning and biology? Not trying to be contrarian or whatever, but when dudes don't fuck they get real fuckin nasty.
>Radfem or Libfem
- Neither. They're both insane. But if I had to choose an extreme, I'd go with radfem. Libfems including pretty much everything but cis women is bullshit and not actual feminism.
>Opinion on porn/kinks
- I'm fine with them as long as they stay as fantasies. I can deal with drawn loli/shotacon but not 3D/real life kiddie porn though. Even ageplay is fine (albeit disgusting) if both parties are over 18. The actual porn industry is fucked up though and supporting it doesn't fit well with me.
>Opinion on sex workers
- I don't respect them, sorry. They're the ones keeping up the image that women are just pieces of flesh for men. I don't find them empowering or see them as women in charge of their own bodies.
>Opinion on trans
- I don't have a problem with trans people. But the moment fetishist trans women start invading female spaces and claiming they have it harder despite NOT growing up as girl and having to go through everything we had to endure, that's when I lose my patience. But overall normal trans people are fine by me.
>Opinion on men
- Some of them are shitty, some of them are lifesavers. But I really hate male feminists who are cashing in on the feminist trend just to get female attention and rise above other guys.
- Women still face a lot of inequality. For example, when a woman has a baby, she endangers her job and might end up losing it due to her maternity leave. All the while the father of the kid doesn't have to take the risk because he doesn't have to carry the baby for 9 months or stay home to take care of it. Men might claim women have it easier because there's always someone to care for them (there isn't), but is being dependent on someone else really a privilege instead of disadvantage? As a bonus, when a woman chooses her career over children, she's thought of as a heartless bitch who doesn't know her place.
We also have a lot of talk about how western young men aren't able to get a girlfriend, but everyone chooses to ignore the fact that there are a lot of single women who can't find anyone. We always assume that when a woman is single, she's just crazy and/or ugly, while with men it's always the women's fault for being picky. Women are also thought to "peak" at age 17-21 and turn into a spoiled product after they hit 30, while men are glorified to get even better with age and experience. It's disgusting.
It's tied to feminism because trans people are victimized and treated horribly for the same reason that gay people and women are, and often suffer similar socio-economic discrimination. Anything associated with femininity or some vague notion of queerness is considered inferior and worthy of disrespect from a patriarchal POV, which is why much of the libfem community has found intersectionalism useful in these circles. It's not all about transwomen either, despite what you seem to be implying.
Trans people are fully aware of their biological sex in the sense that you talk about. The dividing issue is really an ontological/nominalist one over the concept of a "man/woman" and how this identity is ascribed to cultural factors that trans people feel comfortable identifying with, as opposed to their prescripted gender roles. If you ask me, relegating a minority that suffers such a high rate of being murdered and committing suicide as simply being pseudo-woman infiltrators over a semantic distinction is pretty bad. Especially when the highest risk factors that complicate these things are social ostracism and rejection by peers. Stigmatizing trans people by associating them with mental illness is really just being snide, not to mention it perpetuates existing caricatures of mentally ill people as freaks who deserve to be rejected. One of the best thing a mentally ill person can have in their lives is acceptance
, I don't know a single person with OCD who was cured by her friends constantly pointing out that her monotonous rituals are irrational.
Trans people who come out are typically not met with some parade "supporting their delusion" as you put it. Even moreso than gay people, they're completely alienated in their friendship circles or thrown out on the street by their parents. You seem to ascribe a lot of agency towards these supposed borderline schizophrenics in their ability to persuade people like the pied piper.
What would "treating themselves as mentally ill" really involve? Snapping their fingers and wishing dysphoria away? Accepting the torrent of abuse they suffer from fundies, the alt-right and TERFs? Not talking about the discrimination they face? Sounds like silencing to me.
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lol what about the cotton ceiling and autogynephilia? why do lesbians get death threats for not wanting to be with males? i've had people tell me that female and male are social contructs, and that believing in sex based oppression is transphobic. and i'm a detransitioner. i got over it with therapy, not people enabling me to go on hormones doctors don't even know the long term effects of and cause vaginal atrophy and sterilize myself.
most of the trans women i know are straight men with a fetish. sissy, forced fem, whatever.
most of the trans men i know are either self loathing lesbians (like 90%) or straight girls who used to cosplay and want to be like yaoi pretty boys.
the trans community does not want people to get better or get over it, its mentally ill people enabling each other. considering reddit tells every teen boy that steals his sisters panties hes a transgirl, it adds every crazy, internet shutin to the mix.
the majority of gender dysphoric kids grow out of it and become healthy adults. its fucked up that parents would rather have a gender conforming kid with a medical condition than a possibly gay kid.
people treated me much better when i was an open "trans man". they got liberal brownie points, because butch lesbians make people uncomfortable. and i get people assuming i'm a man still, because girls liking pink and boys liking blue is
the majority of trans people who face violence are trans women of color who have to resort to sex work to survive, or get caught up in drugs. not some pasty stemlord with a love live twitter pic and a fetish for lesbians.
Fucking transwomen with a fetish keep forcing themselves in the feminist community and Tumblr koolaid drinkers keep welcoming them in.
Those men are so self absorbed and blind by their superiority complex that they think they have a right to be part of our community even though they are MALE. And call us uterus bearers and vagina people! and call themselves better women because they chose to be women. Lol
How offensive is that? And they always get away with it. Say no.
The only reason why most are there is because they want to find someone to fuck anyway.
>Radfem or Libfem
I don't really idenitify with any political movement or ideology, but I am a gender-abolitionist.
>Opinion on porn/kinks
I think porn can be very harmful and detrimental for both men and women. And the porn industry is a very dangerous and abusive one.
I don't think porn is inheretly harmful but the way men and women process the information they recieve from porn is. It's awful how kids can access hardcore porn so easily, but I don't think kids are not sexual beings so I don't find it worrying if they have interest on sex or watch some sexy titty gravure or whatever. (obviously they shouldn't have anything to do with adult sexuality)
Kinks are… Well, the kink scene is dangerous and abusive. I don't think fetishes and kinks are always harmful because they can be just so different from eachother.
My problem is people can differenciate reality and fantasy. People see extremely violent and grotesque movies and they don't think "I want to do that in real life". They feel the emotion of the scene and think it looks cool.
But people need to be told everything, even if they know they shouldnt imitate action movies they think is ok with kinks because nobody has told them the opposite.
I don't think things like shotacon/lolicon or eroguro should be illegal, but I think they should be stigmatized. If it becomes socially acceptable it gets out of hand, because people are stupid and can differentiate fantasy and reality.
People should be educated to understand moderation and how things like these can play with their perception if they don't analyze why they like this or that.
>Opinion on sex workers
It's obviously a dangerous job and a huge par of it is sex traffic and pedophilia. But the women that do choose to do it, well, do what you want. All jobs are about giving a sevice, I don't think they give away their bodies.
But I think that a person that puts themselves in such a dangerous situation is kind of retarded (unless this is their last resort or something)
>Opinion on trans
I think trans issues are very complicated and varied. Some trans people are really just gay, others want to do things that are considered woman only and get confused, others have problems with their bodies, or a mixture of all that, etc
I consider it a mental illness and I think they should seek the help they need to feel better with themselves. I think people let themselves be guilt-tripped into accepting trans as not mentally ill. If a person feels like their body is wrong that it's just their imagination. You can't be born in the wrong body, your brain doesn't have a gender, you are born with the correct genitalia. I understand feeling like you haven't, because I feel like I should have a male body. Dysphoria is like Body Dysmorphic Disorder in my opinion. But nobody will tell you to get plastic surgery when you know you have BDD.
>Opinion on men
I think men are conditioned to be very toxic people, the same as women.
Education and prevention are much more powerful than hormones and subconcious thinking.
I believe the male and female roles established make sense, but they are not neccesary. Women are capable of being active and workers and men are capable of being nurturing and sensible. It all comes down to education. I think why women fail when taking a traditionally male role and viceversa is because of mixed signals. Of course somebody raised to be nurturing is going to be better at raising a kid and somebody being raised to be a dominant person is going to be better at dominance. Hormones do take part in your behavior but people can be raised to be successful in both traditionally female or male roles.
Those roles make sense, made sense, in a primitive enviroment. Now there is no need for men and women to keep what nature created if they don't wish to. We live in a highly unnatural enviroment, or you could say that this is our nature and just a step on evolution, but cultures and behaviors are going to be lost and I think gender roles are not neccesary anymore. We can trhive with a good moral education.
I also think you're not born gay or whatever. In my opinion is just how some LGB felt and passed their feeling as reality and to push their agenda to be accepted. I don't think there is anything bad with being LGB (I am bisexual myself) but I think that it really just depends on what happends during your very early years and the culture around you. The more these sexualities are accepted the more people like them will exist.
I don't think the whole world being gay can lead us to extinction or some youtube comment nonsense like that. We don't depend on traditional reproductive methods anymore.
I don't write very well things like these in english so maybe everything I wrote is a mess.
…..are u me…
For real though, its like we are the exact same. Mad respect because we have the same opinions ;)
No. Feel free to report my post so a farmhand can waste their time checking my IP.>>123177
No. Did you even read what I wrote or did the first couple of words trigger
you so hard?>>123176
Cool. I'm happy somebody agrees. English isn't my native language and it's especially difficult to find the right words when things get political.
Why don't you read what I actually wrote. I didn't write feminism should include literally everyone. I even expressed my discomfort with trans-women being allowed in women’s bathrooms.
What I said is that feminism is about men’s rights too in the sense that more often than not things that are perceived as feminist are good for men as well.
Like paternal leave. It’s feminist, because it enables women to work while the man takes care of the child. But it's also an advantage for men who want to spend time with their children.
Same goes for rising awareness that men can be victims of domestic abuse. It's feminist, because it deconstructs the stereotype of women being weak and incapable of violence. But it's also about men’s rights because it enables them to address abuse without being ridiculed.
What I'm saying is, women and men's rights often go hand in hand and shouldn't be perceived as polar opposites. "Patriarchy" (I don't like the word) is bad for men, too. But it's not as bad for men as it is for women.
Obviously, men’s rights that have nothing to do with women’s rights shouldn't be a concern of feminists.
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>>123069>Radfem or Libfem
mild radfem>Opinion on porn/kinks
against porn, kinks are fine as long as kept in the bedroom. Not very kinky myself. >Opinion on sex workers
I feel sorry for them. >Opinion on trans
Bullshit that enforces gender stereotypes->Opinion on men
They are all different. Some are good, some are bad. I'm attracted to a small minority of them (cute, short and skinny), but usually i just view them platonically. I dislike how angry they tend to get. >Extra opinion
I support feminism but i think we should focus more on third world countries where they cut off little girls clitorises, not on "gender neutral bathrooms" or whatever these libfems are focusing on.
porn should be banned, it unrealistically represents womens bodies and sex
sex workers should be helped and pimps should be arrested
trans are ok, but lots of people nowadays have self induced gender dysphoria and/or not even trans at all
men could be ok at times, but I feel like too many girls like shoeonhead will suck their asses with all kinds "ooo men are above" type shit
I think kinks that encourage pedophilia such as ddlg should be illegal and all pedos should be put to death, including bill clinton and his pedo posse in hollywood
TBH I should have made my comments about people on either end of the spectrum. Between the libfems and the terfs, I've found mostly a general distaste for both groups.
I don't hate trans people at all and I think it's insane to claim that it's just a super creative way for men to rape and oppress women but I do think that arguing over it is useless when there are women living on the streets with no access to treatment for mental illness and/or addiction, or being abused in a family that keeps it secret etc in first world countries and little girls undergoing forced feedings, breast ironing, genital mutilation, forced marriages and rape.
I'm all for equality but it's really offputting to see people arguing over things like the symbol used in the toilet door or pedestrian lights the way libfems do. They seem like they're hurting their own cause and contributing to the idea of 'miserable female doesn't know what she wants'
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There's a thing i've noticed… (many) Men seem to argue that women and men are so very different while (many) women argue that men and women are more alike than we like to admit. Are men just blind? Do they just hate the idea of being the same as a woman but just with different genitals? I've also heard from many fathers who had daughters that their views on women became completely changed because they saw that their girls behaved just like they did as children. Really grinds your gears.
>Radfem or Libfem
neither though i lean a bit closer to libfem, but just a tad.
>Opinion on porn/kinks
liking porn or having kinks isn't inherently bad, but it becomes a problem when girls think they need to learn to literally choke on dicks and gag on cum just because its what they think they're bf wants b/c he watches that gross shit. i notice a lot of girls usually know when their weird kink fantasy is usually just that; a fantasy. and they usually know to treat it with caution if its particularly intense and keep it to themselves. lot of out-of-it dudes have no filter on reality and usually try to project their weird kink shit at all times, despite whether their partner is into it or not.
>Opinion on sex workers
i don't have a problem if that's what they want to do. but same with porn industry, i wish they're working conditions were better.
>Opinion on trans
again, no problems. i don't know what it is to be trans, so i try to stay in my own lane with those issues.
>Opinion on men
i don't hate men, but dealing with the particularly bad ones can be extremely exhausting, frustrating, and even frightening. i know there are plenty of good men out there, but its fucking tough to remember that sometimes.
no giant group is ever perfect, and feminism is no different. its got its stupid problems, but as long as you stick to the big picture and don't get bogged in shitty little details, things can be ok. also rapists and pedophiles must die
I hate it and it's weird
not because its gay
but because its the porn industry
>Radfem or Libfem
Not really sure. I guess I lean more toward libfem.
>Opinion on porn/kinks
Kinks are whatever. I don't care when people are "kink-shamed", and I shame kinks all the time for being disgusting or ridiculous, but they actually don't matter as long as people can see the line between reality and fantasy. I agree that some kinks come from more fucked up social issues, but that can't really be helped, and I doubt discouraging the fetish itself in an individual is going to do much to eradicate the issue itself. Porn, on the other hand, is a fucked up industry. If watching it is so important to a person, then the best thing they can do IMO is to not pay for it, and avoid supporting its production (unless it's 2D porn, or content made by women who aren't being exploited or exploiting others).
>Opinion on sex workers
I feel bad for them. It annoys me when the few privileged sex workers who chose that profession entirely of their own free will try to downplay its seriousness as "whorephobia". Your ego and reputation are not more important than people who are suffering.
>Opinion on trans
I don't see anything wrong with trans people or being trans. If gender is a social construct, then it makes sense that there are people who don't fit within the boundaries imposed upon them, people who veer toward the "opposite side" more. Why shut them down? It makes you seem more like a gender purist than an abolitionist. If you're against the construct of gender, you could even see trans people as a sign of its impending destruction. If people society calls "men" can not only see themselves as "women" (and vice-versa), but take lengths to make that self-image more apparent to the outside world, isn't that a sign that it's crumbling? People are waking up to how arbitrary it really is.
That said, I don't appreciate trans people who derail discussions on sex-based issues ("Don't talk about your vaginas or uteri as a "women's issue", I'm a woman too but I don't have those!" If you don't have those things, then this doesn't concern you. Just sit down, jfc) or when MtFs who don't have bottom surgery think that cis lesbians should date them.
>Opinion on men
I think society conditions men to be a certain way that not only hurts them internally, but normalizes them hurting each other and women. The extent of it varies culture by culture and person to person, obviously, but it seems like a universal trend. This may have been beneficial back in harsher, more primal times, but now that the human species is at a point where we don't really need all that bullshit, hopefully they learn to dial it down.
I've also noticed that when men complain that feminism doesn't do anything for them, they're usually the ones who have never heard of "toxic masculinity" in their entire lives, and when you mention it to them, instead of listening to you or even doing a simple Google search, they just take in the words "toxic" and "masculine" and completely misunderstand it as "blaming men for existing!1!!1". If more men actually paid attention to what feminism entails and ignored the stigma, they'd probably be feminists. This is excluding men who actually, unironically want women to be oppressed and beaten down (even at the long-term expense of themselves), of course.
There needs to be more of a focus on areas where women are more obviously treated like second-class citizens. I don't have a problem with recognizing gender issues in "more equal" societies, but I dislike that those seem to come first 99% of the time.
Also, there are so many feminists who balk at the thought of intersectionality, and that just rubs me the wrong way. Like it or not, there are women who face other types of discrimination that don't just come from their gender, and those issues don't just magically exist separately. They experience everything at the exact same time, so mainstream feminism (or "white feminism" as people have started calling it, though that's a tad too racebaity for my taste) is like putting one tiny band-aid on a gaping stab wound. Not only that, but women who face those multiple forms of discrimination (lesbophobia, racism, religious oppression, ageism, ableism, workplace discrimination, etc) are far from the minority. They're basically the majority in the world at large, despite how things are portrayed. In reality, "privileged" women who don't really have to worry about more than one "ism", are very much a minority, but they were the ones who got to speak up the soonest and most easily. I guess that's where movements like womanism stem from, but I'm very much a "Divided we fall, united we stand" type of person. Women need to stand together if they're going to get anywhere.
Also, calling oneself an "egalitarian" is a cop-out for people who don't actually know much about feminism, but think the concept is good and don't want the "crazy feminist" label. "Egalitarians" literally only come out to argue with people they consider "bad" feminists (which may be all of them in their eyes, idk) and essentially virtue signal constantly. While there are feminist foundations involved in protecting people and defending their rights, I've never seen or heard of a single egalitarian foundation that does any of that. The same goes for MRAs (though MRAs are pretty much just misogynists with a prettier name). They don't do anything, not even for men. They're just useless groups made for people who like to complain about feminists.
>>123167> most of the trans women i know are straight men with a fetish. sissy, forced fem, whatever.
Im very skeptical of transwomen who are also 'lesbian' it just rubs me the wrong way
Gigi gorgeous is another enigma to me considering he went from very gay twink guy to 'straight' transwomen to 'lesbian transwomen'
same, I also hate when transwomen get away with more stuff than women
like if this person was a legit woman, they would get flooded with hate
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a man kills himself and all people can think is "hmmm how can we blame a woman"
Whooooooo what a stretch, that article.
The man had been molested as a child and confessed to being depressed a long time before he was even married, and they blame his wife?
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Her account was supposedly hacked and someone posted shit. Of course the media took it as "facts"
I'm just wondering who kept lying to them all those years, and why even fathers who know this treat their daughters differently from other women, young or not.
My dad does this. Women 30 and up are this, that and the other, makeup is silly when you're already married, women are so vain for spending money on skincare, who are they trying to impress, back in MY DAY etc etc…
Meanwhile I'm married and do all those things (as does my 55yo aunt) but that's fine because we're sensible
! Other women are airheaded harlots who only care about clothes and have kids for money, but not you!
I'm just trying to figure out where they got that nasty line of thinking from, my granddad was nothing if not a gentleman who respected and cared for my granny until their death so it can't have been him.
how is putting makeup on your face even comparable to the porn industry
also nice generalization that most women wear drag queen levels of makeup daily
are you bot? cuz you're acting like a bot
if you're a man and you wanna cover up a zit with concealer go ahead, it's not a woman exclusive thing, plus a lot of girls will admit they wear makeup, and people know they're wearing makeup
with porn stars and cam girls,men will actually believe that's what sex is like or that's what women's bodies are like, henne why girls who aren't bigger than a C are labeled as flat and girls who don't have that huge round perky bum are labeled as no ass
pretty much MGTOW
no matter what happens, if there's a woman involved they try to blame her, especially if she's younger
love ur sisters not just ur cisters
im a cis lady, thanks, and im not going to stay silent.
why dont you consider trans women real women? they experience transmisogyny, a prototype of misogyny which often results in violence from angry men.
Who doesn't know that by now? I'm just confused because people normally suppress they're gay side and identify as straight for awhile before admitting their bisexual
Don't hear about many people suppressing their straight side. Im not doubting the legitimacy of their newfound sexuality but I wonder if Gigi just got tired of the shortcomings of men
not the anon ur replying back n forth w/ but
>they experience transmisogyny, a prototype of misogyny which often results in violence from angry men
is that all you need to check off your checklist for women? being offhandingly treated as lower by angry men?
the problem is there are many transwomen in different stages of transitioning and mindset, so its hard to look at that group as a whole and go, "oh yeah, they're all legitimate women"
some even portray themselves as a caricature of what men expect women to be (vain and shallow and hyper sexualized) in order to be better women than real women
>how is putting makeup on your face even comparable to the porn industry
Because it creates and maintained an unrealistic expectation that is placed only on women and that is bad for them and ultimately fake and unobtainable anyways?
>also nice generalization that most women wear drag queen levels of makeup daily
Any and all make up is the result of an industry telling women they aren't good enough without a product. It doesn't have to be drag-queen heavy, it still upholds a damaging and made up image. >>199411
>are you bot? cuz you're acting like a bot
No, I'm just point out that there is something that is very damaging to the vast majority of women, and many feminists completely ignore it, especially in favor of something that as far as I can tell is far less damaging.
>if you're a man and you wanna cover up a zit with concealer go ahead, it's not a woman exclusive thing,
Please don't pretend that men normally wear make up and that they have an obligations to in the same way society expects women to wear it.
>plus a lot of girls will admit they wear makeup
And? Most porn stars admit porn is fake?
>and people know they're wearing makeup
Uhhh have you missed how little girls think that having pores is abnormal and that 9 and 10 year olds are going around wearing concealer and foundation? And no, men have NO idea what a natural vs. make up face look like.
>with porn stars and cam girls,men will actually believe that's what sex is like or that's what women's bodies are like, henne why girls who aren't bigger than a C are labeled as flat and girls who don't have that huge round perky bum are labeled as no ass
Okay, but men have unrealistic expectations about everything, including how women's faces naturally look, and more importantly make up makes women have unrealistic expectations. Most women aren't going out to get boob jobs and ass implants. On the other hand, almost every women spends time and money on chemicals that society tells her she needs, to the point many feel they can't leave their house without them. If that isn't abusive and coercive gender roles, I don't know what is.
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agree with all except>gender is learned, not innate>abusing women in a sexual context is bad>transwomen aren't men
Gender is definitely innate. Some of it is learned and socialized, but much of it is totally preprogrammed.
Sexual abuse depends on what they're talking about. Actual sexual abuse is bad yes. If they're just talking about dominant sex then no.
Transwomen are still pretty male, but I have no problem with them. If they transitioned early, then maybe I can agree that they're really "just like women". I agree they don't have masculine privilege.
And who are the ones murdering men? Interesting how these so called men's rights activists can never look inwards, they're too busy talking about "divorce rape" (false btw bc men end up RICHER after divorce) and fake rape accusations, kek
My point is that people will try to blame women for men's issues, violence and suicide when they're by far the greatest perpetrators
it's not blaming women as much as it's "feminism doesn't care about men, if they really wanted equality they would!!!" basically complaining about others not doing things they think should be done but never doing it themselves
>false btw bc men end up RICHER after divorce
oh no, some people don't want to have sex with people who have penises. yet trans women like to act like they don't have one. isn't that rape by deception?>>199555
if you get murdered, who cares what's the gender of who murdered you?
anyways i think most women's fear of danger is overblown
I have some issues with this
>Lower chance of being a murder victim/physical assault
Patriarchal culture supports and encourages men to fight and be violent and "manly". Ironically men would actually benefit from less patriarchal society with destroyed gender norms
>Lower chance of committing suicide
Men aren’t encouraged to be open with their emotions, again a result of patriarchy
>Work related injuries/deaths
Women are actively discouraged/discriminated against entering dangerous jobs, maybe men could be more open to hiring them?
>Shorter/easier criminal convictions
Men commit more dangerous/serious crimes across the board
>Circumcision is illegal
Male circumcision is nowhere near as invasive as FGM, which is still practiced in so many parts of the world - legal or not
What? How is this even an argument?
>Control over 60% of US wealth
Blatantly false MRA lieshttps://www.democraticunderground.com/10024233028
Ah yes, only a robot would consider women’s reproductive rights to simply be a “privilege”. Last I checked men cannot get pregnant.
Another outright false statement. Before the ACA women were actually paying a 50% markup for their health insurance http://www.healthline.com/health-news/should-women-pay-more-healthcare-services
We wouldn't have so many more women's shelters than men's if the vast majority of spousal homicide victims weren't female
>White House Women and Girls Council
Maybe we wouldn’t have this group if a majority of their politicians weren’t male? Or every US President ever?
>Better employed for same experience
Again not an argument
>Assumed primary parental figure
Most couples decide outside of court that they would rather have the mother as the primary caregiver - maybe this wouldn’t happen if men gave more shits about their children?http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115.html>married father spends on average 6.5 hours a week taking part in primary child care activities with his children. The married mother spends on average 12.9 hours. Since two-income households are now the norm, not the exception, the above information indicates that not only are mothers working, but they are also doing twice as much child care as fathers.>In 51 percent of custody cases, both parents agreed — on their own — that mom become the custodial parent.>Only 4 percent of custody cases went to trial and of that 4 percent, only 1.5 percent completed custody litigation.
>Positive sexual encouragement
Last I checked men are the ones who get lauded for their sexcapades while women are shamed
>More contraceptive options
Again, men cannot get pregnant
>Not assumed to be a pedophile
Most pedos are men, that has nothing to do with female privilege and everything to do with male sexual deviancy. Regardless, most people don’t think every man is a pedophile
>Not avoided by strangers
You’ve got to be reaching if this is argument actually made the infographic. Sorry that random women don’t want to talk to you?
>Given extra attention in class
This is just outright false
>Less likely to be depressed
This is also outright false
Another weird non-argument
>Expected to choose easier career
I really don’t understand how this is a privilege, I would consider it the opposite
>Punished less for changing your mind
>Less likely to be killed in war
Most of the military is male, not to mention women are outright barred from joining some parts of the military
>Exclusive school groups and clubs
But you guys have the Proud Boys! Maybe you can make one?
Sadly now “Gender studies” to include trannies
Why do you think it exists?
Kind of ironic since >>199579
is replying to someone doing just that
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>your face when presented with facts and statistics against your """"""inforgraphic"""""
Lol come again sweetheart
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Hm feminism makes the mistake of assuming that women are more socially vulnerable than men when it's actually the opposite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculine_psychology
); men need to go out and work to establish masculine identity and when they can't do this (or can't bring themselves to, or are allowed not to) they become emotionally volatile and dysfunctional.
Feminism sees the male-dominated landscape and tries to change or reform it to make it more equal. However the plain truth is this: to have to take orders from women, or, yes, even to see women as equal or competitive to themselves, is in fact antagonistic to male identity.
Though not to say that males need to be rude or dismissive of women. The feminist idea that men think women are inferior to them is quite false, and in the cases that it is true it is not an essential quality of maleness to think such a thing (after all, women can think that about men as well), rather it is an essential quality of a reprehensible person in general, and hence better dealt with by the authorities than by feminism.
Males must and do see women as fragile angelic figures, forest nymphs and things of that sort, this is the natural male attitude towards women: something beautiful representing love, compassion, and self-devotion, all things which cannot be provided by their fellow man, and all things which they eventually need to be happy. Masculinity here does not mean brutishness and it's wrong to conflate the two, which feminism often does.
So all in all I see what feminism is trying to do and I understand it and sympathize with it, but my opinion is that it is actually far more cruel to men than it thinks itself to be, and by extension far less virtuous than it thinks itself to be. And I cannot associate with a movement that does not even properly understand its own causes and effects.
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Nah, men attempt it less. They just usually just go for the guns and women for pills.>>199631
Why not both?>Males must and do see women as fragile angelic figures, forest nymphs and things of that sort>men think women are inferior to them
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more women who attempt it.
more men who die by suicide.
reason is as stated soft (cutting arteries, pills) vs. hard methods (guns, hanging)
god I dont even want to go deeper down this thread, it just annoys me so much. I would consider myself as a liberal feminist. men's rights activists are laughable in my opinion. women and men dont even actually have equal rights and oppurtunities even in developed countries (although it improved a lot), so I say: get women at the same height as men and then we can talk about what rights men are so desperately missing. although the divorce law in the US is highly flawed with women getting a shit ton of money. the other way around in germany after a divorce it was recently changed to that the men has only have to pay for their expenses during seperation and 1 year after divorce. Although there are special occassions for being old, ill or else.
image related is all one needs to say about feminism.
This thread makes me wanna low key die.
Can't discuss women's issues without it becoming women versus men, and slews of angry incels come flooding in to cry about Stacy.
Exactly this. So many people think wrongly that feminism is all about "female vs male". Feminism is higly intersectionalized now, after all, we women aren't a hivemind and different groups have different needs and issues to attend (and sometimes these reclaims clash between groups). At the end the manly goal is the same and that is to comment on gender issues and bring up solutions in order to obtain a higher quality of life. Not bring down men for fuck sake.
On the other hand I can understand why a beta male would feel threatened, after all he has to face more competetition and that means his probability of success is reduced. Hence the "dem feminists bitches wanna bring us men down", which is a very stupid idea.
I long for the day being male or female stop meaning shit and people can thrive without society telling them what to do because of the genitals they had born with… hmm I guess I'm a gender abolitionist
For your last point, feminism isn't about men and never has been. Radical feminists at least believe that men created and benefit from the patriarchy so they can't really complain about it.
Not saying I agree but I used to run in those circles so I know some of their common beliefs.
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THIS. Feminism doesn't need to include men. Anti-feminists try to use the "what about the men" tactic to discredit feminism.
The fact is that advocacy groups will focus on one issue so that their cause doesn't become too diluted. Most people are understanding of this and are OK with it, EXCEPT when it comes to feminism. For example, no one pulls a "what about the Asians?" to try to discredit BLM, or "What about the elephants?" to a whale conservation group.
Women are expected to be the mommies of the world and fix everything, including men's issues, while MRAs and anti-feminists sit around and do squat. It's a tactic used to spread our resources thin and lose focus of our goals.
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/u/yishengqingwa666 is my favorite person. Nothing funnier than linking that article to men and seeing their reaction
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On the other hand, if you had a tiny modicum of honesty in your black heart you'd realize that all people, both male and female, have such disgusting and precarious notions of self. Just as civilizations were built on war the human self is built on suffering.
Does that mean we should abolish maleness? Not really.
Everything in existence is but dust, and human beings are perpetual motion machines fueled by mutation. You are an idiot if you think the only gender worth keeping is the one founded on perpetual love peace and equality. This is true of neither. And any attempt to found such a 'gender' will never meet the qualifications, which are; anxiety. The anxiety about what you are is what makes up what you are. By saying "I choose to be X" you conquer the anxiety and at the same time conquer the very notion for which you made the choice to begin with. Yes, transgenderism is self-defeating.
Consider yourself for a moment. Where is your identity? Is it maintained by forces any less disturbing than that of the opposite gender? Do you despise animals for eating each other to survive? Do you want to blot out the sun because of how many poor atoms it has consumed in its infernal 4.5 billion year lifespan? No. You look up at the sun and see it as something good, a source of light, because you are human, and it is human to benefit from light.
Maybe you should look at things the way they are rather than how you think they ought to be.
She's talking about the European view of women obviously, which was shaped significantly by pre-Christian paganism.http://www.historyofwomen.org/wifebeatcuttings.html
Wife beating was not considered acceptable behavior even 200 years ago, and men could be punished for it.
He was talking about the true nature of men. Even if what you're saying is true, what would make the European view of women any more "true" than men's attitudes from any other culture, at any other time?
It's just proving that people's views and identities can be shaped by culture, hence (normal) men who grow up with feminism won't become ~dysfunctional~ when they have to answer to a female boss. Unlike men from the Middle East.
>>199663> the other way around in germany after a divorce it was recently changed to that the men has only have to pay for their expenses during seperation and 1 year after divorce.
That sounds reasonable though. A year is plenty of time to get back up on your feet assuming you were a glorified neet during the relationship.
This is all assuming child support is a different beast anyways, which is not something I have an issue with.
>>199704>The fact is that advocacy groups will focus on one issue so that their cause doesn't become too diluted. Most people are understanding of this and are OK with it, EXCEPT when it comes to feminism.
I'm sure the fact feminists frequently try to get men to care about feminism by giving lip service has nothing to do with it.
Take the Warren Farrell protest. Man goes there to try to figure out why two of his friends committed suicide, and feminists yell at him for daring to go. This man is chewed out for not seeking answers from feminism, which as you stated is supposed to be about women problems first and foremost. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0&feature=youtu.be&t=130
So, yeah. It's totally fine if you guys don't want to even discuss male issues. But let's not pretend modern feminism isn't incredibly bipolar. It's not the MRA boogeyman at fault for this, they're more of a response to it if anything.
in todays age: yes. Especially if you know this and as a woman arent dumb enough to back down career-wise in your marriage to support your husband, this is absolutely okay.
it's not okay for all those women that lived and married before the 70s and 80s were all the opportunities for women were to become secretaries or they supported theyre husbands, or werent even allowed to work, when their husband didnt sign in. Even apartments could partly not be rented by an unmarried woman alone. Like all the older women in my family just became housewives and mothers.
>>199721>clit piercings and tattoos at 14
thats not really what feminism is about…. >hate beta males and hate patriarchy
alpha males and patriarchy are not really connected. An alpha male is someone with confidence and charme. patriarchy is that a women has to be obedient to their husband. The men as the authority in the family. Patriarchy and alpha males are not contradictory.
>Do you just want a world without men?
I would like a matriarchy for a change.
The mosuo folk in china is matriarchical. They dont know words for rape, murder or war.
what did the modern world bring them? Prostitution.
alpha males and patriarchy are absolutely connected.
An alpha male has traits of power (tall, strong, high status, money, etc), and patriarchy is necessarily going to be led by high status guys. So patriarchy will look out for the alpha male.
Matriarchy is bad because of subjugation by patriarchal societies. It might be better to live in, I'll agree. But then again, a primitive Ted Kaczynski society might be more satisfying to live, but it will get massacred by literally anyone with a gun.
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Why can't you just be cute waifus?
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So uh. Ignoring the muh traditional waifu derailers and getting back on topic…
Did anyone hear about the Teen Vogue Anal Sex article?
>doesn't use the words male/female in the article, rather "prostate owners" and "non-prostate owners" (defining women in relation to men)
>their diagram of the "non-prostate owner" anatomy didn't include a clitoris, but the diagram of the "prostate owner" included a penis and a prostate
>No risks or side effects were mentioned besides the possibility of getting an STI (which was only added after an update). The article fails to mention potential tearing, hermorrhoids etc.
>The Digital Director to Teen Vogue, a gay man, ignored all criticisms of the article and accused the critics of being "homophobic"
>Then when it couldn't get any cringier, he tweeted pic related
>The author of the article was similarly clueless and she tweeted "Never going to stop. Never ever going to stop. If anything, I'm more woke than ever to my mission. Education and truth will always win."
Libfems and trannies are ruining feminism reeee
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>>199763>They dont know words for rape, murder or war.
>The lack of a word for “murder” doesn't mean that murder doesn't happen; the Mosuo have a word for “kill”, and simply use that word to describe all forms of killing, including murder. And when I talked to the Mosuo about rape, they said that traditionally the punishment for a rape would be execution – why would they have a punishment for a crime that doesn't exist?http://www.mosuoproject.org/myths.htm
Let's be real here. The only reason women have not instigated war is because they would never actually win one. This idea that women are somehow more "pure" is honestly a disservice. I actually find it fascinating because I've seen feminists wax on about how the "Patriarchy" uses the myth of female purity as an excuse to keep them in the kitchen, but then you internet feminists will try to claim some sense of superiority with that very same value. >>199788>But then again, a primitive Ted Kaczynski society might be more satisfying to live, but it will get massacred by literally anyone with a gun.
Do not bully him
>Radfem or Libfem
It intersects tbh, I have a lot of strong feelings
>Opinion on porn/kinks
theyre good- if you keep em private. Just like you dont watch porn in public, don't bring your weird sub/dom or daddy kink out at the mall.
>Opinion on sex workers
If they're in it by force, i want them to be helped and gotten out. If they do it of their own accord, I couldn't care less. Doesn't affect me.
>Opinion on trans
Think it's real, want them to be able to transition or access things to make them feel more correct in their bodies.
>Opinion on men
They're okay, though most of the ones I've met are kinda shit, there are lots of others who aren't so.
There needs to be more women in television production.
when people are like "western feminists have nothing to complain about!!" it really grinds my gears. Mostly guys say this, but also seen women say it too. Do they really think so little of the world they live in as to assume it's a shallow puddle? No, society is one of those rivers that looks unassuming but is actually deep in undercurrents. Everything affects everything else. Economy affects class, class affects diet, diet affects health, health affects economy, economy affects education, education affects careers, careers affect economy, education affects relationships, sexuality affects media, media affects economy, society, education, everything.
Their idea that eastern societies suffer more than western societies is moronic. They ignore all the bullshit, all the fragile shoddy framework in the very communities we live in and they want to highlight the endangered muslim women, the FGM victims, and yet they do NOTHING about it, and they don't even talk about it, which is the very least you could do! Stop fucking comparing problems just because you aren't affected by it!
When it comes to porn and sex work I think people are actually discussing ten separate angles and merge them all into one clusterfuck. Porn is addictive, and it affects and desensitises people. The industry of sex can be dangerous and it's extremely ludicrous and harmful to thousands of children, women and men. However we desperately need to destigmatise sex work and the workers in that industry and not treat them like dirt. The fact that some people get into sex work because they are financially desperate is sad, but it also shouldn't be shamed. We need to remove the idea that sexuality is dirty and filthy and shameful, and there are degrees of watching porn and up to a certain degree it can be healthy or even discover new aspects of your own sexuality.
Feminism can benefit men but benefitting men shouldn't be the end goal, wtf. The enemy of feminism is the patriarchy, which is an archaic parasite that seeps into everything around us, and it has tangible repercussions. It affects how we think, how we feel, how we act, and due to its nature it's extremely skewed. It benefits men in many areas, and it's created an illusion that women have it easy for being in the house with the kids as though it's "better". Feminism should remove the stigma of toxic masculinity, should allow a space for male abuse victims, should create an environment where boys and men can be emotionally expressive and healthy without being shamed for speaking out. And in turn it should allow women to make their own choice for their own life, to dress how they want to without being judged for it or putting their lives at risk, it should let women in male dominated spaces and de facto have the same amount of respect.
All the factors such as class and economy and skin colour and sexuality branch out and twist around the same core: that the patriarchy harms in so many facets of our society. In different ways and with different results. To say that a matriarchy is better is… well it's guesswork. But what will definitely be better is dismantling the harmful old ideas of the past since we are smarter, more connected and theoretically easier to educate ourselves with the entire world in our very fingertips. And it'll take years of discussions and arguments and flawed attempts before what we fight for now becomes normal generations down the line.
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>>213674> We need to remove the idea that sexuality is dirty and filthy and shameful
I hate this sentiment that has become so prevalent. Why? What's the point?
Sex should remain private, not paraded around like it defines who you are. Promiscuity, i.e., casual sex, does nothing good but give temporary fleeting pleasure that dulls the mind.
And porn, or any other masturbatory material, is only healthy in the sense that it sates desires, but they spur on those desires themselves, leading to perpetual lust and near-addictions to masturbation.
There's a reason most philosophers advocate for celibacy as the most moral option in regards to sexuality.
Also, there is nothing redeeming in sex work. Women working in the sex industry are treated like garbage, it's essentially in the job description, and it is not okay. Those who willingly go into sex work and think its empowering to do so are just garbage people
Sex can still be a private thing and not be shamed, you know. How much sex someone chooses to have - or not have - doesn't lessen or improve a person, that's the whole point. Sexuality is dirty when you have loose vagina comments (and people actually believing it), sexuality is filthy when the idea of casual sex is shameful (rather than the person's own business, assuming they are safe and sane), and it also bleeds into education like extremely lacking sex ed because of this weird idea of purity, like if you don't teach teenagers and kids about sex early they won't go around doing it.
Sex is natural and not "hush hush" like we don't know what it is or how it works. We should just remove the darn taboo already, educate people properly and allow them to make their own choices.
And yeah they do treat women like garbage but that's the industry's problem, not the worker's. What I'm tryna say is that you should hate the game, not the player.
Also I don't take much stock in what philosophers say. Celibacy isn't such a big deal (and neither is sex) but a lot of celibate people want to think that they are celibate by choice and therefore superior and pure, or they feel like they got trapped into the celibate life cause nobody wanna be with them which breeds resentment.
I never said the industry is good, I said that it's damaging in my original post. If it's not willing workers then it'll be kidnapped or trafficked or blackmailed workers. Do you think I don't understand that?
But do you REALLY think that you can eradicate the oldest industry in the book? Do you honestly believe we'll manage to stamp out the negative side effects of porn and trafficking and abuse and horrible things women are subjected to just for the visual pleasure of men?
Because if you think it can be done, then by all means tell me how. Sex existed, and it will continue to exist. And it will always sell. If you really think it's so unreasonable to try our best to lessen the idealised glossiness of porn and lessen the trafficking and abuse but also try and retain respect for the women working in there, then I raise my hands in defeat because I honestly don't see how it will be solved in black and white methods.
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>>213681>How much sex someone chooses to have - or not have - doesn't lessen or improve a person
I won't say not having sex inherently improves a person, naturally that is the case, but for someone to go out of there way to meet people and flirt with them for the sole purpose of sex (whether they be a woman or a man), I think that it does say something about that person.
Firstly a sex obsession, leading to the active desire to seek out sex from people, leads to the objectification of the opposite sex and lessens the meaningfulness of romantic relationships with others.
Second, the desire for sexual pleasure is an instinctual urge like any other. It is as natural as taking something you want, that does not mean it is okay. Casual sex shows a lack of inhibition and self control, they want pleasure so they seek it out. They put this desire for pleasure above other needs or personal pursuits, taking time out of their life to partition towards feeling temporarily good.
Obviously sex education is necessary, but casual sex should never be normalized. In my personal opinion, sex should be kept among those who are very close romantically, and have been together for a long time and have built up trust and passion with each other, there's no reason for this to be secluded to religious purposes.
If you wanted my actual opinion, nobody should have sex save for procreation, but obviously that isn't a popular sentiment.
This is the thing though, this is your opinion and how you relate to sex, sexuality and relationships, right? And that's okay
I mean, I'm not a promiscuous person, either. I can barely get a guy's attention for more than a minute, nevermind have casual sex. But the way we talk about people who do have casual sex and who want that over a longterm/monogamous relationship can be kinda shitty sometimes. Especially the women who choose that path. Slut, whore, loose vagina, skank, the old keyhole and key analogy, like, there's tons of elaborate and hurtful ways society frowns upon (mostly) women who don't express their sexuality in conventional monogamous ways.
Part of society evolving out of nuclear family being the only way to live, women are exploring differing alternatives: maybe they aren't getting married, or having kids, maybe they are focusing on their career instead, or maybe having fwb or having casual sex rather than be in a committed relationship, or polyamory. I don't have an issue with those alternatives, but I'd hope they are done safely, smartly and without the shame from society.
I'm gonna go to bed right now so I'm just gonna say that, I want sex workers to be respected and cared for; I want them to have rights and unions and be able to walk away from bad situations and not be forced into prostitution or pornography out of desperation or threats of life. I want cleaner, safer better environments, I want peoples' nudes to not be used as blackmail or revenge material, I want better sex ed and I want schools to actually TEACH and not give a half-assed class on biology with none of the side dishes of what sex can be about. I don't want porn to be this plastic, flawless ideal nor something people look up to, but I don't think porn will ever go away, either. I want people to be aware that porn is an act, it's a show, and it's not real life nor will it ever be like it.
Casual sex mostly affects the single person doing the sex. So it's not really my business what they do, however the degrading attitude society has towards sex or women who express sexuality is meh, and so is the porn industry for a myriad of reasons, and those affect thousands of people, not just one. And it carries on through generations.
I get it, but you're not going to have an easier time changing society's opinion on sex than you would be abolishing the sex industry. Those attitudes are ingrained in there. Deep.
The reasons why prostitution, sex trafficking, etc are primarily degrading for women isn't because uguu sex is filthy and ur a whore if you have it!! Although that attitude plays a different role. It's because they're treated like cock vessels with no other purpose than to satisfy men. Their past and future doesn't matter, their inner lives don't matter, nor do their hopes, wishes, dreams… All that matters are their holes. They're not treated like humans, they're treated like objects.
>>213688>Casual sex shows a lack of self control
It's fine for you to have your own opinion, but that really just is all that is. Maybe that's the case for some people, but if I have casual sex then I've made that decision, I don't just accidentally flop to the floor in a moment of lapsed judgment. However I see that for you sex is rooted amongst your self worth and shame, but it isn't for me.>>213690>>213695
I agree with everything you both said and it's really refreshing to feel that I'm not alone. There has been a lot of negative commentary on /ot/ recently so I've been feeling alone, so thank you.
I think recently reading this site has given me the same hopelessness that some people give themselves by reading /r9k/, and I need a break
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>>213688>going to meet people and flirt with them for the sole purpose of sex means you're sex obsessed
Not necessarily. Some people just need a hookup once or twice a year if they don't have a relationship and aren't prepared for one.
Having a fuck buddy doesn't mean you don't bond in other ways beyond sex, it's just a relationship where a long-term commitment is understood to not be on the table.>leads to the objectification of the opposite sex
How? And in what ways?>lessens the meaningfulness of romantic relationships with others
Then how do people go from having casual hookups in their youth to being in committed relationships and marriage in adulthood? Obviously this can't be true for the majority of people who've had casual sex in their youth but grew up.>wanting pleasure and seeking it out is a moral failing
Is it?>desire for pleasure above other needs or personal pursuits, taking time out of their life to partition towards feeling temporarily good
This is just a wordy way of saying that you don't think people should seek pleasure if it means putting aside other responsibilities. Well, the same could be said for people who derive pleasure from other hobbies. Do you hate the action, or do you hate the person who isn't responsible? Methinks you'd argue the latter if I replaced it with literally anything else.
I respect that you have unpopular scruples for yourself, but you're also stereotyping to make it work.
Keeping it in the bedroom means engaging in your kink, e.g. Bdsm, in your own private space with willing participants. So maybe tying your boyfriend up in your bedroom or letting your girlfriend spank you in her empty living room.
Not keeping it in the bedroom could literally mean having public sex activities, but also can mean things like posting Facebook statuses how you like to be spanked, openly talking about your latest escapade at a work meeting unprovoked or wearing a tee-shirt with a fetish related pun to the supermarket. Generally oversharing to people who didn't ask to hear about your kinks and presenting it as part of your public identity.
there's so much going on in here.
the real thing is we can't have our cake and eat it to. we can't say we don't want to be objectified but then respect sex workers and simply be upset with the industry. as long as women are sex workers, there will be more leverage for disrespecting women's sexuality and objectification. we shouldn't shame them for choosing sex work cause it's dirty, but we damn well shouldn't respect them for feeding into a corrupt and disgusting industry because then they will continue to be part of the industry and it will not change.
the type of men who are interested in the hollywood style sex industry, porn, strippers, escorts etc. are the ones who disrespect women's sexuality the most, calling promiscuous women whores, objectifying them and being general douche bags. many men who are not interested in the sex industry do not do that, because the sex industry teaches men that women are sex objects, for their pleasure, and that promiscuity is dirty. instead of being worried about shaming women for sex work and sparing their feelings, why not instead reject the industry as a whole? the issue is that many 3rd wave feminists believe sex work to be empowering. that the woman is gaining for her body, but they do not realize that idea simply reduces the woman to her body and reinforces everything else i mentioned. if the sex industry should continue we as women in general, not just sex workers need to demand a change and help to empower our fellow women who are in sex work. we simply cannot just shrug and try to fix it. i wish i had more ability because i've thought forever we need to have outlets for sex workers to be helped into job placement etc so they don't have to do it anymore…
sorry for rant.
"the real thing is we can't have our cake and eat it to. we can't say we don't want to be objectified but then respect sex workers and simply be upset with the industry. as long as women are sex workers, there will be more leverage for disrespecting women's sexuality and objectification. we shouldn't shame them for choosing sex work cause it's dirty, but we damn well shouldn't respect them for feeding into a corrupt and disgusting industry because then they will continue to be part of the industry and it will not change."
I do see what you're saying and somewhat agree, however I don't think women should be forced not to partake in sex whenever they want too just because of this and we should just accept men being shitty. Saged for blogpost but I managed to change a few men by calling out their shitty behaviour and even that is a great feat for me, yes there's still a lot of assholes who will insist you're a dirty slut if you're not a virgin or have more than 5 lovers but I've gotten to a stage where I no longer care about them and 99% of them are just insecure within themselves.
Men aren't the stupid sex beasts who can't control themselves a lot of them pretend to be, they're perfectly capable of change they just don't want too because the taboo of being a slut benefits them.
excuse me, did you step into a time warp from the 1800s? People have enjoyed sex and fucking since the beginning of time, being a prude about it is a very recent phenomenon. Please reevaluate why you think sex is so precious or sacred or whatever the heck you assume, because I can assure you it's not a mythical ritual that binds two souls together for life, nor is it a dirty ungodly act done in the darkness of night under sheets.>>213754
You don't get it. There's always gonna be an industry. Do you honestly think if a ban was put tomorrow on porn and prostitution that it will simply go away? Do you really think it won't just make people go to worse measures to get it? Do you believe that mere restrictions will keep it on the downlow? Because I assure you it won't leave. If it's not trafficking or blackmail or Hollywood or desperation, it'll be home videos recorded willingly (or worse, leaked), or cam girls on the internet. Going back towards a prude attitude to sex will only make us regress as a society. We have to address the criminal aspect of porn and prostitution, we need to crack down on people who hurt others, but you can't look at the female workers, most of whom would rather be doing something else, and shame THEM for it.
There's only a small percentage of women who willingly went into porn while they had other options. And even smaller than that, that got treated fairly. But sure, it's the womyns fault, right? Definitely not the industry's. The more you provide power and rights to the workers and better environments and legal ways of providing those services in clean proper manners the better you can control the situation because I guarantee you that banning and shaming will accomplish nothing except crueler ways of getting women to do your dirty work.
That's men's problem if they hate women so much they can't view them as individuals and then judge them as such.
What one woman does affects all women because men view every woman as interchangeable. We don't matter to them as individual human beings capable of complexity.
i'm talking about sex work, not causal sex.>>213772>>213759
no one's blaming other women for how men perceive women, but it's obvious that society isn't ready to accept certain things and like it or not women's actions will make them worse.
Did all the farmers here wait until marriage to fuck their bfs? lol
Do you know where you are? This is a radfem thread, not catholicism >>213772>What one woman does affects all women because men view every woman as interchangeable. Therefore no woman should enjoy consensual casual sex because men will think we look bad
Oh right, it's that crazy person(s) again. I wish you would go back to your bizarre shame colony or wherever you were before you recently started spewing your venom
No I was responding to the anon that says that what one woman does affects all women. I was quoting them. Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear. However I was saying that yeah women are judged on what other women do because men don’t view is an individuals. Obviously I don’t think that’s right, but that’s just how men are and it shouldn’t change how each of us choose to live our lives because you can’t win with them anyways
I don’t see anything wrong with people who have casual sex, and I don’t believe that it has anything to do with anyone else except for the two involved.
Anon who's never had a boyfriend here.
Is it absolutely necessary to give blowjobs nowadays? Is this what it's come to?
If a guy asks you to do anything you don't want to, you say no. If he tries to force you, even passively, then you dump him.
I've dumped several, and now I have a respectful boyfriend. Neither of us do anything we don't want to do, stopping hallway is fine too. He understands my triggers
and we're patient with each other.
it's not rly about it being demeaning per se, but guys often want women to suck their dicks - while putting in minimal effort of hygiene, some of them - and they aren't so enthusiastic about going down on their gfs because muh taste buds and muh nose. They have unrealistic standards about how the female genitalia should be; no hair, smooth, no lumps bumps or unsightly razor marks, it should be fresh and clean with no odor or flavour, and also look nice to them, like optically.
Yeah all that comes across as extreme and OTT but most women who have been with more than one guy can attest to at least one of those things, if not all at once, in someone she's been with.
Also a lot of guys get women to suck dick and don't reciprocate, or call it a day once the job's done. Which is extremely poor communication because if it's not a discussed subject then the woman is often left there to deal with herself and the guy is happy.
in a vacuum you are correct, why stay with someone who disrespects your needs and rights in a partnership? But when you're emotionally invested, or you don't have a lot of experience, or you're maybe not a person who bonds easily with others/has trouble creating intimate relationships, you're willing to forgo a lot more. You say "okay it was this time, he'll do better" or maybe they even promise like sorry babe I'll make sure to make it alllll about you next time! and sometimes "next time" happens, sometimes it doesn't. And every time is distracted by life, daily routine, work, obligations, like the only thing on your mind isn't about how you blew his dick and he didn't give anything back. So things pile up in the back of your mind but the longer you stay, the more you tolerate.
I can see how that might happen to someone with low self esteem but it's really important to listen to your own body's and emotional responses. My first relationship was like because I allowed myself to be emotionally gilted and haven't learnt about sunk cost syndrome, so I understand. But it's been 8 years since then and I've never let that happen again, you just have to learn to put yourself first and know when you want to say no. No "not feeling it but ok", just say no. If things change in a way you don't like, you leave, either you learn to be happy alone or you find someone worthwhile.
This is why it's important to talk about consent even just in relation to hugs and kisses as early on as possible.