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Sounds like incels projecting yet again. I don't even know what the female gaze would look like. >There is also the possibility that the female gaze can never fully develop because the language of cinema was created largely by men.
This pretty much
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kindly shut the fuck up>>7606
So there seems to be an effort to create it and define it because, yes, it seems to sort of barely exist at the moment. I'm seeing lots of depictions of soft looking women among flowers but is that really it?
I did see a comparison of two versions of Harley which I've included in this post. I'm curious what people think bc the Twitter feedback was very mixed. Right image is from Birds of Prey.
To me they still kept male serving things in the costume design so idk if it's fully there BUT the style is quite different for the costumes they gave her in Suicide Squad.
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Another comparison people like to make. who made the costumes matters a bit but not entirely because any gender can create content to serve the tastes of the other, as long as the taste is established. This almost always ends up going one way, with female costumers and directors pandering to the male gaze rather than the opposite happening at all.
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What are some examples of female gaze? Just more of a focus on feminine beauty than sexual appeal (kind of like the intricate artwork CLAMP put out of Chii from Chobits, in spite of how 100% male gaze-oriented the actual work is)?
It's not that I don't believe in the concept, I just can't fully visualize what such a thing would look like.
They’re both hideous.
I don’t think female gaze can exist. We are all the product of an entire lifetime under a patriarchal society, watching movies, reading books, consuming television produced under the male gaze. It’s impossible to say what a female gaze would be. What media would women make for other women, in an all female society?
Saying the female gaze is feminity is dumb, I like girly shit but none of that is inherently tied to my womanhood.
Uhh why are you defending incels? Just wondering. Are you just sick of hearing about them? Actually curious here.
Is the female gaze like how women want women to be portrayed? Or how women want to see men portrayed? Although now that I'm thinking of it, that depends on your sexual orientation I guess? Just spitballing ideas.
Here's a definition from wiki:The female gaze is a feminist film theoretical term representing the gaze of the female viewer. It is a response to feminist film theorist Laura Mulvey's term, "the male gaze", which represents not only the gaze of the male viewer but also the gaze of the male character and the male creator of the film.
So I guess it's all of the above. This is an interesting topic!
I'm sort of wary of manga/anime depictions, I think Japan has a weird view on women and even their (female) artists draw rapey love stories in a genre they describe via the demographic: shoujo/young girls. The artwork you posted specifically looks alright though. I wouldn't fully dismiss it.>>7610
I agree, for the most part. I think eventually
it could be possible, like perhaps centuries in the future. I don't think it's truthful to claim it is never ever possible because there are female artists and new strides are still being made in art, even though some media have slowed down. It's not possible to undo aesthetic conditioning in a lifetime but over several lifetimes we can slowly shed the limitations and conventions.
Video games could be the space to try and invent it. You have to remember that the way male gaze is executed in film is heavily through cinematic language that men influenced. Video games are a young art form and the theory, take it from someone that studied it, is really really lackluster. We don't have the profound academic theory to back up games that cinema has. It's going to happen as the medium matures and I personally predict Kojima's new project will probably do some Citizen Kane shit for games. It's in inventing new solutions to problems and creating methods which academics then can analyze to break down to theory in how it all works.
Coming from that perspective, if we have women taking risks and trying unique things in a medium that has space to develop then we could potentially push for aesthetic language that connects to us.
Yeah Harley's design is quite ugly and the character has always been extremely unappealing to me. Mindbroken idiot woman who is obsessed with her boyfriend and is physically abused as the cherry on top. I don't understand why women like her.
This is what I imagine female gaze is.
From https://www.vulture.com/2018/08/how-do-we-define-the-female-gaze-in-2018.html>“The ‘male’ gaze seeks to devour and control, and the ‘female’ gaze is more a frame of mind, where approach to subject and material is more emotional and respectful … I try to approach shooting with a particular sensitivity, an openness to experimentation and a penchant for failure. I want the image to come alive and I think perfection is boring.”
I thought you were calling me an incel. Sorry about that sis.
It's a term that includes sexual tastes but it's also how the female viewer would want to see a female character represented. It's in every facet from costumes to character writing to how the camera frames people. For instance in the text Megan Fox's character in Trasformers was actually written as a frustrated, intelligent woman being overlooked by men due to her appearance. The camera as directed by Michael Bay framed her as purely a sex object by obsessing over her sexual appeal. There are some video essays that compare the text to the framing if you're interested. Anyway, bit of a tangent there.
Think about how commercials try to sell their target demo a product by showing the viewer's ideal self and implying the product can give you that. That's why you can usually tell who a brand is selling to by the models they use. Holiday resort commercials and car commercials are AMAZING examples of this effect.
In theory, female gaze would give us the female female fantasy. A female perspective. You wouldn't get stoic white dudes who have pussy thrown at them shown as the exclusive holders of protagonist privileges.>>7613
I like that because while it's not necessarily the
female gaze, it sounds like it is her
gaze which is exactly the kind of contribution needed to construct a dense library of aesthetic sensibilities we can call the female gaze.
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at first i was like, wtf, because i thought some scrot made this thread, haha. i have never thought about this before.
i feel like media that is made for a "female gaze" would be harder to define. it's so rare to see something that really sticks out to me and makes me feel like it's… speaking to my sexuality, i guess? the only example i can think of is sachiko kaneoya's artwork, and even then a lot of it is still niche, but the foreword in her new artbook really spoke to me, pic related.
i think art made for the 'female gaze' has been much more niche, ambiguous, and hard to come by since women typically have not had very much room to explore sexuality in general. even when i see things that i guess are supposed to turn girls on, it just makes me feel alienated. there is also- in my opinion, what i believe is- the myth of "men are visual creatures; women are not". if i could guess i think that came about from men pressuring women into looking the way they want them to, while men typically don't do much appearance wise. i'm going all over the place here, but i guess that's all i can contribute for now.
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This involves porn somewhat, but from what I've been able to tell in nsfw/suggestive artwork drawn by the sexes, women tend to focus more on detailed, subtle aesthetic appeal whereas men focus more on almost cartoonish proportions to highlight sexual characteristics. Hence you get gross stuff like shad, whereas the female gaze creates stuff like Sac. It doesn't even have to be het work either, I've seen artwork from lesbian artists that's far more…appreciative of the female form rather than transformative, and have also seen gay male art that dramatizes sexual characteristics (huge "hyperrealistic" dicks, cartoonish muscles, etc.). There are obviously exceptions but that's the majority of what I've witnessed from both.
So general trend is that men like dramatized, very in-your-face depictions of the human figure while women can appreciate the whole human body and not just sexual areas. Even yaoishit that's transformative and goofy in the way heteromale art is dramatizes non-sexual but pretty areas of the male body, like hands.
Rambley but I guess what I'm getting at is that the female gaze is less gross and obnoxious. This probably translates into sfw areas as well.>>7615
Agree with all this, too.
Very interesting blurb from the artist there. What women
look at in men is going to be an entirely different set of body parts than what men would assume we look at. My male partners have always been weirded out by the parts of them I compliment. It's definitely easier to spot the female gaze in sexual framing, just as it is easiest to spot the male gaze in sexual contexts. I'm not really willing to look at straight up porn just because I truly loathe the entire concept but if people have an interest in exploring and decoding some stuff that is fine by me, just spoiler it as we would anywhere else on the site.
>men are visual creatures, women are not
That is truly insane to me! Women are extremely detail oriented compared to men and we have a strong sense of aesthetics. Where would that sentiment even come from… >>7616
The details definitely matter a huge amount. The presentation has an emotional presence and appreciation for the nature of the subject matter. Men going for excess in all aspects also checks out. Even straight anime porn for men is all grotesque in proportions.
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Love the topic.
The last time I felt something like "the female gaze" was when shopping for artbooks and wanting to get this one, it might be because it portrays male characters in very intimate but not sexual situations. I was kinda hesitating because it's "too spicy", but soon after it hit me that it doesn't even come close to the portrayal of women in pop culture.
It's hard to flip the stereotypes perfectly, but maybe it would be about seeing men in a vulnerable state? Because it would be a state men don't want to be seen in, a state which a woman might enjoy more because of an intimate connection and technically have more control? It's a very stupid stereotypical version and it doesn't have a degrading aspect to it.
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Alright you goddamn weebs, I have some weebshit up my sleeve as well.
Peep Akino Kondoh's art. I have a collection book of her works and it's probably the first time I realized I crave a female perspective as a grown woman. She has worked with the "flowers all over nude females" visual shorthand quite a bit and they're quite nice too but her more abstract works are so captivating to me and it hits me directly in my female identity.
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>>7612>I'm sort of wary of manga/anime depictions, I think Japan has a weird view on women and even their (female) artists draw rapey love stories in a genre they describe via the demographic: shoujo/young girls. The artwork you posted specifically looks alright though. I wouldn't fully dismiss it.
Yeah, I just thought of CLAMP because they're an all-female artist circle, and I think their art reflects that, though their actual work has some of the same pitfalls you mentioned.
I personally think I grew up liking anime/manga (manga-styled art especially), partly because there isn't a huge scarcity of women and girls being both pretty and strong, without overt sexuality necessarily being enforced (though, since the lion's share is still made and consumed by men or women who lived/worked according to men all their life, this isn't true in all or even the majority of cases). Looking at things like pic related, I was just never given the feeling that raw sex mattered more than design itself or the character, unlike how I felt with a large chunk of western media/design/cinema. That's not the case for all of it by any means, but when I do find something that hits that sweet spot, it tends to be some sort of anime drawing, for some reason.
I pretty much agree with the cartoonish stuff. I know a lot of women if they ever do draw things cartoonish, the men are more likely in a vulnerable state like >>7618
said, also more often then not, these men are portrayed very feminine-like.
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Another Akino. Her work inspired me to work on my current art project that seeks to explore my connection to being a woman. I hope to conceal the subtext in visual allegory bc I don't really want an in-your-face expression but these sorts of works speak to me so much.
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yeah i agree! it's definitely not just something applied to nsfw art, but i use it as an example.
i used to think i wasn't visual because i'm female, and i just knew that the things that turned men on, weren't what turned me on in any given situation, even if it was the same situation. but it's not simply visuals/nonvisuals, not at all.
i guess the best way i could put it is this image by kaneoya, and any dumb dakimakura of an anime girl made for men. i have the impression that men like seeing girls laying on bed half-dressed, because the implication is that they're going to remove the rest of the clothes and have sex. but i love this image by kaneoya for incredibly different reasons. it's not just sexual. it's not an "i want to see more" kind of appeal. it's so intriguing, i love it simply as it is, and i don't need to see more. it's that transitional value in a way, she describes it exactly in the foreword i posted earlier. i've found that maybe the character of that "male absolute territory" is what turns me on, and men like the "female absolute territory" because of implications that he'll get to have his way with her later.
i don't know if i'm making sense lol, can anyone else articulate this concept better?
Definitely. Reading manga as a young girl was such a treat because I couldn't find what I wanted in live action shows on TV. I was dreading the anime images at first but you guys' examples reminded me of how much this stuff speaks to us than whatever else is widely available. Thanks for getting me to entertain these works I've "grown out of" in terms of subject matter but not in the aesthetics.
I backed up my tumblr blog where I made no original content but simply stockpiled a fuckton of images that capture my gaze. It's all safely stored on the cloud now, I backed it up right before Tumblr decided to purge all NSFW shit which ended up killing all the blogs I took the images from. Not that I care about Tumblr but I'd be sad to lose my gazeboard.
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Warning for k-pop.
SNSD is an interesting case. In Japan, they were occasionally marketed towards young girls. Above is the Korean version of Oh!, bottom is the Japanese version. Korean version has hideous outfits and hair and is focused on sex appeal. Japanese has trendier, less revealing outfits and hair and makeup that girls would appreciate. Aesthetics and visual appeal are number one for females.
>>7617>Women are extremely detail oriented compared to men and we have a strong sense of aesthetics.
Yes. I think many men are half-blind. Like they can't tell a woman in a picture is sexy unless she has spherical implants and cartoonish makeup and an unnatural pose. And when it comes to cartoon and manga art it gets worse, it's like a lot of male artists never look at real women and don't find them attractive.
Lesbian and bi women however, are able to find women in their natural state sexy and often draw women in a very different way, with realistic proportions.
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So, while a hypothetical female gaze would dwell on "perfect moments", the male gaze dwells on a hint of being offered or promised something?
It's like two different interpretations of the term "pregnant pause". I like this theory a lot.
Wow I just gushed about this image IRL to my roommate. It's a perfect
example. The little bits of delicate details we look at are there, the face has an emotional vulnerability and the setting looks like he is getting off work. All so appealing and I think it does pander to us really well. It does back up what the text said in the earlier thing you posted.
What we seem to all agree on so far is>detail good>male "AT" differs from female and is in delicate details like the lines of the neck, wrists, hands, etc>has to be emotionally vulnerable>color harmony and naturalistic design trumps excess of sex organs>>7625
Neck beards really want to be able to "both sides" every conversation so they can inject false nuance to their opinions. That's the source of the dismissal of a potential female gaze by going "but there are shirtless guys so shut up".
These works are absolutely beautiful anon, I appreciate you sharing them!>>7629>a hypothetical female gaze would dwell on "perfect moments", the male gaze dwells on a hint of being offered or promised something?
Kinda fucked up on the dude's part but an interesting theory nonetheless
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>>7630>"but there are shirtless guys so shut up".
Muscular shirtless action hero men do nothing for me, this type of shirtless scene though…now we are talking!
He is both vulnerable and weirdly seductive at the same time. And no crazy abs.
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I just considered something. In hentai (and most porn), we've been conditioned to focus on the woman and her appearance above all, rather than the man, to the point where it's often an automatic habit. We look first at the woman's body and actions. She is "being" while the man is "doing", and her act of "being" overshadows everything else. Since that's what (straight) men want to focus on, it's good, but for (straight, bi and lesbian) women, it gets played out, hard to enjoy or just ineffective. But we're used to it.
Is male x male content actually a way for women to separate from all that for once?
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ifkr! i never understood any "female pandering" when it was just like, some buff guy with his shirt off. it seems too voyeuristic for me, plus i'm not into bulging muscles. i never saw the appeal of porn because i never get turned on just seeing a person's genitals. what has always been more of an erotic experience to me was something that really showed the character of a man, in a vulnerable way. guys have always been weirded out when i compliment their hands, neck, shoulders, wrists, legs, etc. but those situations are always so much more appealing to me than the sexual scenarios that are made for men. when i'm attracted to a man, i don't fantasize about sex very much. i just find it so attractive when he adjusts his shirt collar, fixes his tie, folds his hands. i appreciate how nice his profile is when he turns his head, i love the movement of him rolling up his shirt sleeves. it's really, really the little things.
my sexuality is essentially: i need a guy that wears well-fitting button ups every day and knows how to carry himself, lmfao, not a big dick.
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I haven't watched it yet but a friend used to talk a lot about the Fujiko Mine anime and it's on the top of my list. The reason why I'm bringing it up here because a female director and a female writer are portraying a sexualized character here.
>“Women never show themselves in their natural form. That is to say, they are not so vain as men, who conceive themselves to be always amiable enough just as nature produced them.”–Goethe
>In the sixth episode of The Woman Called Fujiko Mine, Fujiko reads this passage to a class of adoring high school girls while in disguise as a teacher.
>She is selfish and greedy, uses sex for her personal gain, and prefers vice to virtue. Of course, so does our hero Lupin, but his motives are never questioned. As a man, he is allowed to simply be who he is, whereas Fujiko, as a woman, is compared to notions of how a woman should be.
Why I find it interesting is that while it features nudity and overly shapey curves, the visual style also has a lot of the things other anons mentioned, more of an aesthetic approach, flowers, attention to detail like jewellery, very interesting shots.
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You're right. Western media for children (almost?) always focused on making content for boys. Girls were discriminated against.http://reelgirl.com/2014/01/more-on-cartoon-networks-history-of-sexism-cancelling-shows-for-featuring-too-many-girls/
>In a fascinating discussion with director Kevin Smith, Dini relates that higher-ups at the cable network urged him to focus his storylines on his male characters and make his female characters “one step behind the boys, not as smart as the boys, not as interesting as the boys.” When Dini proceeded to create fully realized girl characters anyway, the Cartoon Network axed the show.
DINI: They’re all for boys. “We do not want the girls,” I mean, I’ve heard executives say this, you know, not [where I am] but at other places, saying like, “We do not want girls watching this show.”
Not the same anon, but I still like CLAMP and Chobits even if the story is very skewed in a male dominant way. I like the mellowness of the story and the clothes…
>>7633>Is male x male content actually a way for women to separate from all that for once?
Shit. This is a valid
While I don't think we can accurately pinpoint what makes fujos the way they are, you are probably onto some aspect of the truth.
I loathe porn because it makes everything look like meat. I think that "meat" aspect is probably caused by male gaze. If you look at porn art the limbs are all kinda floating and bloated, no skeleton is actually assembled underneath. It's like an idealized version of what live action porn offers.
i only posted kaneoya works that don't have a very obvious femdom element to it. even describing what i liked about them, there's no explicit femdom element to what i said.
also the thread is generally for any art, it doesn't have to be nsfw. why be surprised that a lot of feminists on lolcow are into femdom anyway, lol
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nah, I just like having two men to look at instead of just one. It's like a bonus. 1+1=2
(Not that what you listed arentreasons for some other people though)
I wouldn't call myself a fujoshi though. I'm too old to be that weeby.
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I've heard some say it outright that it's a way to escape objectification of women and shitty gender roles/ hierarchy.
For some that internalized stuff about men and women may be so hard to get out of their head that they prefer to focus on malexmale only when drawing/writing.
(I'm not saying you can't like it just because it's hot or whatever too, but this is the case for some women)
But personally, I prefer female POV in romantic and sexual scenarios. It's too rare and I love finding it.
Remember when it's your fantasy and creation, then it's your power to create exactly what you want when you imagine or draw or write something. Toss gender roles out the window if you hate them and imagine the perfect scenario. Sexualize the shit out of the man/men in the way you want. Portray the woman as ugly or invisible or as hot as you want.
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One example I can think of off the top of my head is Sofia Coppola’s films, specifically The Beguiled. She said it was a conscious choice to have Colin Farrell in the film as the “hunk” to turn female objectification on its head. https://www.indiewire.com/2017/06/the-beguiled-sofia-coppola-colin-farrell-female-gaze-castration-1201847789/
Interesting, I prefer art but the writing makes me more emotionally invested in a character. When an artist or writer portrays textures well it's also something that feels more real (not necessarily ero stuff).>>7650
This too, it's sadly either bodice ripper stuff or fanfiction where one character acts like the writer more than himself.
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NTA, but this is one of the only female sub pictures I've really been able to get into.
Not actually NSFW, but spoilered anyway.
What an interesting thread. I never thought about what made me attracted to a man but it really is the little things like Kaneoya portays in her artwork. Veins, arms, the neck, the skin between the clothes, the expression, etc.>>7635
What makes you think Kaneoya's work only appeal to femdom women? It doesn't. Also her art's been posted here for years regardless of the topic so I want to know how new are you?
I'm going to see the film this week and get back to you on this. I'll take it to the film general if my feedback ends up not being female gaze related, though.>>7646
Visuals are more appealing but they have to be backed up by thoughtful text. >>7653
Can you describe what it's doing for you? What do you like about it?
Not to be mean, I think the image is goofy as fuck but I want to hear what appeals to you about it.
I like visuals because I enjoy drawing porn and suggestive art for myself (even dearest Sac's art doesn't hit the sweetest spot for me). Just a visual person in general.
Teen me liked writing and reading smutty shit too, though. The ideal medium is comics.
>>7657>Can you describe what it's doing for you? What do you like about it?
I just like the dead, sickly look in his eyes and the fact that he's not an ugly old man, or some non-descript male with the woman as the main focus. I like that the way the woman's leg is chained shows there's something sexual and deviant going on, without having to beat it into the viewer's head. >Not to be mean, I think the image is goofy as fuck but I want to hear what appeals to you about it.
Kek, I'm not offended at all. Different strokes. I've seen worse, so I'm not bothered about the art style at all.
I think the images posted so far show a man thinking, having feelings, being intelligent, being engaged in a task which is not his dick. Being attractive while not actually thinking about or pursuing sex.
I think outside of portrayal of men, female gaze is where women are intelligent, productive, strong characters that aren't existing as decorations, servants, or victims
of crime as ways to incite revenge in a male character.
Most mainstream movies are made to a male perspective. I think movies like Ghibli, Some Disney and Pixar and some older screwball comedies like the Marilyn movies are all with the female gaze/with female gaze and experiences in mind. Especially newer Disney ones, which have subtle plot devices making it clear that, specifically the male love interest was a scoundrel and not a hero (Frozen, Maleficient). Brave has no love interest either, it's about family bonds the same as Frozen.
I'm hoping for more movies (not aimed at children) that have our perspective in mind in future. Female characters does not = female perspective, some all-female movies are entirely scripted by men, and then offered to us as a product "for us" despite our perspective being entirely absent.
Idea for thread: Please recommend movies that you think reflected your outlook and experiences.
So I actually said that some people like to make this comparison. I don't have a strong opinion on the actual costumes personally. Reading my old post I realize it was misleading on my part. I was trying to say that what women wearing the costumes report back or referring to the gender of the person who designed them are both not very sound arguments bc women are capable of pandering to male gaze and women are also capable of appreciating male gaze. We aren't perfect embodiments of only masculinity or femininity so there are grey areas.
Besides I think the amazon actors had good reason to defend the people that hired them regardless and being allowed to be genuinely buff on camera rather than skinny cardio bod is still empowering and interesting at the end of the day.
Does that make sense?
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I’m fascinated by the female gaze as a writer and a big lover of art.
First and foremost, the idea that men are more often visual thinkers or whatever is utter bullshit in my opinion. I mean what the hell does that even mean???
I agree with the anons who mention a need for a female perspective in art. Lately, I’ve been tired/bored with the typical male messiah/end of the world/doomsday prophecy art and literature that seems to preoccupy the male psyche.
I also agree that there probably isn’t the equivalent female gaze as there is a male one. If we think of the male gaze and what it means not only in life but in art, the whole issue seems to stem around this idea of fantasy and idealism. When men stare/gaze/watch a woman, they fantasize about her, the things they would do to her, etc. This often leads to a sort of resentment or fear of real women when men are confronted with the reality that they are not perfect, passive, empty vessels of dreams and desire.
However, I think a contrast to the idea of ‘looked at ness’ in the male gaze is playing with the idea of confronting the gaze and looking back. Women are expected to be aware of state of being watched but are never expected to acknowledge it or else it breaks the fantasy. To me that’s a key perhaps to breaking the potential power of the male gaze. In film, when women are looked at they never acknowledge it even though you can tell they are aware of being gazed. The few times a women does acknowledge it she is seen negatively or portrayed as dangerous, like a witch or the more modern femme fatale. The camera in itself can be seen as a phallic object since it teaches us to narrow our perspective and see things not as they are but how the cameraman wants us to see them.
So I would imagine a good experiment would be to take a female director and a male director and give them a scene to film, and compare how a man would film a woman versus how a woman would film a woman (or a man). What do they focus on? Does the camera (the eye) portray the reality of the subject or does it describe the subject from the perspective of the one in control of the narrative?
I could go on but it’s a lot to think about.
I attached an image of Serge Lutens working with a model back in the day, as he’s an intriguing artist whose work revolves around the feminine.
>>7663>Please recommend movies that you think reflected your outlook and experiences.
i think doing this with media in general sounds awesome. i'm looking for more movies to watch that resonate with me.
off the top of my head, i'd have to say the animated film Perfect Blue is really compelling, not just from the perspective of an idol, but as a woman in general. she struggles with her true identity and the identity others thrust upon her, specifically one men who obsess over her have created from what they desire her to be like.
i think the bell jar is an amazing book, and i'd definitely recommend any woman to read it, especially teen girls. it felt so cathartic to read what is basically a fictionized version of sylvia plath's experiences. i wanted to cry so many times reading it, it felt so genuine. the uneasiness around men, questioning your identity as a woman and what it means, wondering what sort of lifestyle you want vs what others think you should want… it was very powerful.
…how is that a nightmare, especially when compared to the abuse in 50 shades
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I'd like to talk a bit about 50 Shades with people who have read/watched them. I've only digested critique videos on it (Folding Ideas has a very comprehensive breakdown of each film and refers to the original fanfic as well) and want to see if some of the elements do or do not relate to the female gaze.
From what I understand the framing of the sex shifts from female pandering to male pandering in the last film? Do feel free to tell me to fuck off since I haven't bothered to watch them but BDSM is not an interest of mine so I doubt I'll ever see it for myself unless there are very cool things to look for pertaining to gaze.
I also want to hear some feedback on female-pandering YA fiction novels with "strong female protagonists". Again not a fan of the genre at all but I've been told they are really important and satisfy some female perspective cravings. Are there good examples of the concept that you can name? Seems like showing women being proactive
is what the audience connects to primarily.
Recent posts made me think- is the female gaze too intimate for a lot of people? Because so often romance and feelings are portrayed as "yucky", and such works are more harshly shamed than trashy power fantasy fiction. >>7680>female-pandering YA fiction novels with "strong female protagonists"
I dislike that a lot of them still have unhealthy relationships.
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might be looking into it too much, but i wonder if the color+pattern scheme of the boxers kaneoya's typical male subject has anything to do with the creepy panty shots of anime girls. they're stereotypically horizontal white and light blue stripes. i like how she genderbent it and just changed the stripe direction to objectify a man in his underwear. am i overthinking it?
forgot to spoiler pic, slightly nsfw
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Love this topic OP!
What's anon take on Magic Mike? Despite serving a very narrow form of attractiveness, why are these movies popular with women even though the narrative is of hyper masculine male regardless?
Ethics of sex work asides, kind of ashamed to admit that I enjoyed the performance scenes because I got to feel in control. I enjoyed projecting myself into the females who use men for personal pleasure, having a certain power over them. We just don't get to objectify men often… The rest of the movie is boring and irrelevant. My hypothesis is that a lot of women enjoy this dynamic thus the popularity and not just simply "shirtless dudes" like the male gaze frequently misunderstands.
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Its been brought up but I think if we really want to look at Female Gaze with history behind it we'd have to look at romance novels. They've been made by women for women for decades now.
Interestingly the shirtless buff dude covers are being phased out. Originally the cover designs were chosen by the publishers and they've since realized a lot of women DON'T like those covers, they feel embarrassed buying them or renting them from libraries. So newer romance covers are often less explicit.
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This is such an interesting topic, there are so many things I'd like to address. Guess I'll start on comments that didn't get much reply>>7612
As far as Harley goes I think its important to note that a lot of people are unaware of her relationship to the Joker and really only absorb what has filtered through pop culture. Unfortunately there are also a lot of people who haven't had healthy relationships and can't relate to stories about that while Joker and Harley seem more accessible.
Regardless Harley is all Id. She's an adult woman who is childishly playful and whose impulsive actions are motivated by self interest and personal desire. In their day to day lives most women won't be that selfish or lol XD random, many women live lives punctuated by perfunctory sacrifice that brings them no joy and pressures to behave in a lady-like manner. I don't think the character has been handled well but I can understand why she is appealing to many women. Her Suicide Girls outfit is actually far less sexualized than her outfits worn in the videogames, the studio heads asked the costume designers for something that looked like an outfit a woman could make out things in her closet and that would be comfortable for cosplay. It isn't 'cute' but the reasoning behind it is interesting.
Resubmitted this bc forgot picture)>>7690
ahh didn't realize anon.
Explains why they were so macho-y and homoerotic.>>7692
That video actually came to mind when I wrote that, it's true (although I agree on Lindsey with anons lol)
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The subversive element is probably the strongest draw to it. Also straight women do like conventionally attractive men. I don't know if this is necessarily female gaze but it's female pandering for sure.>>7688
NTA but I am so happy that she brought the artist up. I'm going to look into getting an art book by Kaneoya now!
On the topic of more gritty, fetishy art.. I love Takato Yamamoto's works. Male artist but I think the visuals are appealing and the women I show the pieces to react better than the men I've shown them to. What I like about it is the strength of sensual body parts as shapes and the rearrangement of them with artistic design in mind. I think even the images that feature women in bondage are very feminine in the gaze. There is a lot of attention to detail and a general naturalism to the forms as opposed to the bloated sexual excess of male gaze.
Reposted bc forgot to spoiler lol
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There are still the traditional bodice ripper covers FWIW they are just not as all encompassing now. You see more covers that are just a man's face.
You also see a lot of covers where the emphasis is on the woman, provided she is wearing a beautiful dress. In these types of covers the woman is usually standing or seated so you get a good look at the dress.
The style of cover varies from publisher to publisher depending on what kind of books they sell and who they target. You can still get shirtless cowboy cover books they just aren't your only option anymore.
(work in books hence why I bring it up)
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Speaking of darker art I really like the female artist Ayami Kojima. She paints some crazy shit and doesn't give a damn. Has a unique style and loves pretty men.
I think establishing an almost unique female gaze, as in THE female gaze will be pretty hard to do if we focus too much on the sexuality aspect to define it. In my experience, women have a very large set of what they find attractive and even that is contamined by male brainwashing (ie: young women finding old pork-like greasy men hot). All my female friends have different types. The "Chad"-like ideal we're supposed to find hot is actually…not that popular irl.
But when you look at what men find hot, while there are some varieties, it's pretty much the same thing. They like slim women, sometimes with big tits sometimes small but always the same kind of perky, hourglass or pear shaped, it's always the "ass or tits" debate. If you ask women, it wont be "ass or chest", it will be "clavicules, neck, forearms,…" the list goes on and on and on, hell, some women find ears
Irw non-sexual female gaze, I think the show Girls was rather female-gazey. It's a bad show and Lena Dunham is insufferable. I only watched the first 3 seasons when I was much younger than I am right now and hate the show at my current age but I think it does contain a purely female gaze.
Great thread OP and sorry if my post isnt making too much sense i'm a bit high.
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another good example. DAE not really like seeing men completely undressed, but love the act of watching him taking his clothes off or putting them on
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I think thats a bit over simplified. The most accurate way I've seen this described is as such:
Men have broader taste but for the most part they will agree with other men if a given woman is attractive or not. A man can like goth girls, milfs, musclegirls etc attractive. The man next to him might not like goth girls but their interests largely overlap. If the first guy doesn't get a goth gf going for the milf gf isn't a big bother.
Woman have more specific taste that they have stronger preferences for and their interests overlap less with other women. Just look at the Men You'd be Ashamed to Fuck thread in /g/ and you have women absolutely agog at how another woman may find a specific man attractive, they just don't see it. There is a small subset of men who are unusually handsome that appeal to a broader pool of women. I don't think women have the same expectation of ever really getting a guy like that though. The most broadly appealing men are the types that men seem the most puzzled by. The cute, kind of feminine boy band type that appeals to teen girls and young women has been popular for decades and each incarnation gets scorn from men for not being masculine enough. Pic related is an early example.
>>7692>I think female gaze and works pandering to women in a "trashy" way are put down harder than the male counterparts bc of plain misogyny.
God, this. Fujos are universally hated simply for liking fiction that panders to female gaze/sexuality and branded as vapid horny teenagers slamming each other with yaoi paddles and shamed for being "rape fetishists" due to extreme stereotypes of the genre. The same goes for any genre that panders to girls, it's thought of as trash simply because of being guilty of being liked by young women and girls. Like boy bands, they're thought of as the universal punch line and everyone agrees because everything related to femininity is always shameful.
Ellis is pretty on point with this video, especially the part when she brings up that it was mostly other girls hating on Twilight the most because they were desperate to distance themselves from the "lesser" girls. Women are always socialized to police each other because the society absolutely encourages it. And I say fuck that, women should be able to indulge themselves into fantasies that might be considered problematic
. People might huff at men jacking it to the 9000 year old loli dragon but I never see nearly as much pure disdain for them as people have for girls who like girl stuff.
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Yes, also art of men tying their hair up or adjusting their clothes.>>7700
Sometimes it doesn't have to be BL, they're intimidated by any beautiful male character and it's almost hilarious.
Thanks for the elaboration on Harley. I hadn't considered that people might connect to her reckless honesty about her impulses. I personally find her demeaning for a lot of reasons still but this goes to show how poorly represented and accepted women are if this janky character strikes a chord…>>7695
Thank you and all the other anons for the input on 50 Shades and YA novels.
The Hobbit is a shame but it's old fiction and very much a product of its time. What I can't stand is what they did with Tauriel, a movie-only character that they added specifically to add a woman to the roster and she was… she was a shitty love interest character. Evangeline Lily herself openly didn't want to play a love interest in a love triangle and they did it anyway. Despicable.>>7701
That's the artist from Castlevania right? I'm adding her to my list of badass artists ,somehow forgot to add her before even though I've seen her work before. For the next thread OP (if we make it that far) I will definitely make a nice list of films, artists, games, etc that we have mentioned in this thread. Hopefully we can grow a library of references!
Also vampires are kind of female gaze in general. Carnivorous seduction by graceful monsters is complex and erotic.>>7702
Yes so this is where I would hope to take the conversation next. Sex is a more transparent expression of gaze but eventually you have to be able to define other aspects of the construct. Especially for a female
gaze, sex probably isn't the most dominant facet of it just by judging male libido vs female and how much it occupies each gender's mind comparatively.
We could probably connect male sexual simplicity and female sexual complexity to evolutionary traits though I don't necessarily want to go there in particular bc that is a path off topic imo. Just pointing out there are some patterns that follow.
That show definitely did things for my female gaze. Definitely very female in the topics it concerns itself with despite Lena being a garbage human. Also… Adam Driver is so ugly by "objective" standards but he can get it any day. >>7704
Yes to what you said. Also I love men in worth clothes and PJs. Not underwear or gym clothes but pajamas (i.e. some random tshirt and comfortable cotton long leg pants) are so sexy because it's intimate and not overtly sexual. I find men attractive when they do chores and go run errands with me. I like when they share the mundane moments and this seems to be very prevalent in how female gaze works. We want intimacy on more levels than sexual.>>7706
Shitting on other women for approval from men is a very
real thing and is part of why men then go and call women catty. I have a set of rules for myself written down on an autistic .txt file and the #1 rule is>1. Don’t betray your own gender for approval of any kind
The not like the other girl
thing is the epitome of internalized misogyny. It's also garbo bc it gives men ammo like "well women are the ones that shit on other women for appearance, we're not the source of it". Sure Jan.
The west has a very toxic
view on emotions, unfortunately. A synthesis of the eastern intuition and the western appreciation for the material needs to happen if we want to promote a holistic approach to being human. Women get the shitty end of the stick because we acknowledge
our feelings and are willing to experience and express them. Men feel shit too, and because they're so obsessed with denying it they turn to extremely frightening ideologies to cope with undigested emotional states.
Starting to steer away form the topic again, but I did want to chip in on that.
To bring it back to topic, the female gaze has the potential to promote what is traditionally deemed "feminine" and being exposed to that perspective could mend some of these gaps in the western cognition. Both genders exhibit behaviors that overlap so the way to make things less toxic
for everyone involved is to promote the missing half. I resent that men and women are segregated from childhood, even in cartoons. It helps marketers sell shit if they divide the market into demographics but it does not actually serve humanity
sage for blogpost.
this is majorly autistic but I have to chime in regards to fujos. I was a major fujo in my very early teens. I discovered hentai thru anime at a really young age and found yaoi content soon after that. A lot of hentai tropes are basically male gaze to the extreme (crazy proportions, passivity, female partner usually being explicitly raped or implicitly raped, etc.) and even then I knew I wasn’t into it.
I pretty much exclusively looked at mxm erotica for years for a multitude of issues not just relating to the treatment of female partners. I also rly hated myself and how my body looked and was very insecure about other women who I viewed as prettier (competition). plus the mxm content I viewed usually portrayed the men as equal partners and fully realized people. Oftentimes the content wasn’t even erotic - but I still viewed mxm content as “superior” because it didn’t have a woman to drag it down.
Then I grew up and became more secure in myself. I stopped viewing other women as competitors for male attention and that really was what made me stop viewing the content altogether.
a part of it was also the idea that I could enjoy the content without being a part of it. Voyuerism is definitely a huge part of a fujo’s proclivities. I didn’t have to imagine myself in the scene because I knew neither men would be attracted to me. It felt good to be able to sit back and watch instead of having to imagine the self performing, like in most of the fxm content that’s put out there.
now I look for more female-driven art and it’s honestly a real help. I honestly think there would be less fujos if there was more female-driven straight content. I haven’t viewed mxm stuff in a long time, although it sometimes pop up on my old tumblr. I don’t really view erotic content much anymore in general, but when I do, it very closely resembled what’s being posted here - the implication of vulnerability what I find most erotic in the art.
>>7714>This discourse again
Just because teenage fujos like to read male x male erotica due to their own insecurity doesn't mean that's all fujos are about. A lot of adult fujos enjoy the genre because it views men as vulnerable human beings (unlike a lot of other media), deals with a lot of emotions, is made by women, has sexual themes and sexually appealing characters made for the female gaze and has romance that isn't centered around a shitty interpretation of badly written female characters you can't identify with. BL isn't some poisonous smut made to ruin young girls and I fucking hate how so many people are twisting it to be like that and justify their views with horny teenager fanfiction. Most of the actual genre is aimed towards adult women. It's the prime example how another media popular with teenage girls is made to be woven from Satan's asshairs.
Nobody gives a shit about teenage boys loving lesbian porn or PoV porn because ~boys will be boys~, but the moment teenage girls experiment with their sexuality and write that over the top Katsuki x Kirishima fanfiction the world stops turning.
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I really like ponytails (in theory and on models, a guy with long hair needs to take care of it) because you get that peek of the nape. It's an underrated male body part. Also, male necks are sexy because they look different than women's with the Adam's apple. IDK nothing deep to add here I just find a lot of subtle things like that erotic.
ayrt and I totally agree! fujos, be they young or old, get shit on so much for liking content that is seen as “deviant” but really isn’t all that bad. People go to some extremes to shame young girls for their interests. I can’t tell you how many posts in the day I’d see floating around on tumblr about how fujos are literally rape apologists who get off to the suffering of gay men and fetishize their relationships.
ofc this is old news to anyone remotely involved in this sort of discourse so yeah my post added absolutely nothing! you’re right on the money about yaoi/male x male content and its conventions that are so appealing to young women.
there are some more dubious parts of male x male content but the problems I see in the content are far more common in your run-of-the-mill content produced by any man, even if it’s not erotic. Yet these problems are amplified because it’s a woman thing and it’s obviously THE ABSOLUTE WORST.
meanwhile dudes can jack off to “stepdaughter slut jackhammered by stepdad’s cock” and not think twice.
why is men’s sexuality allowed to exist in a vacuum and women’s must be under public scrutiny? I get that it’s a larger part of misogyny to deny women’s sexuality but I don’t understand how men can be allowed to be so brazen while women can’t even peep that they might be into anything other than the tanned, oiled, and violent ideal.
I don't think its fair to put down this anon's experience since she was talking about her personal relationship to it and not generalizing. Unless I am misunderstanding your intent.
For my part I will say a lot of het stuff features badly written women. The men get all the interesting characterization and the woman is a cardboard cutout or features stereotypical traits and tropes that put me off. And m/m stuff doesn't feature that same gender bullshit (different bullshit, sure) and the men are given more equal time and consideration in the writing. On top of that, two attractive dudes.
When it comes to OLDER stuff I think it needs to be critiqued differently. Might not be up to snuff now but it was novel at one point.
Oh I used to be one of those handmaidens who kept policing other girls for what they liked, but completely turned my eyes off from the deviancy men were committing. It wasn't until I got older when I realized how much women were policed for their sexuality despite all the astroturfing concerning "female sexual liberation". Yeah you might have a female character in charge of her sexuality here and there but it's almost always played for laughs and condemned as complete chick flick garbage. I think the closest stuff for female pandering we have in the media are the Marvel movies because they have hot dudes being vulnerable and emotional. >>7719
Should've quoted the rest of the posts following to the particular anon, this one in particular just makes me want to rip my face off. >>7640
My apologies to the anon sharing her experience.
Interesting article about what the female gaze is, or if it exists, from the perspective of female cinematographers
Here's an interesting perspective that got me thinking, from Natasha Braier:
>“I don’t think there is such thing as the female gaze. I think there is such thing as the male gaze, as per Laura Mulvey’s theory, and that gaze, if you talk strictly about cinema only, has more than 100 years of monopoly. It colonized the new medium from the start. You could say that it has become the official language of cinema. The female gaze, if there is such, never had the opportunity to truly develop and become something we can analyze.
>I think every cinematographer has their own unique gaze, technical skills, and style regardless of their gender. And reducing things to two types of gaze doesn’t make much sense to me. Plus, we are always working with a director and putting our skills at the service of manifesting their vision. So the final ‘gaze’ is the result of the combination between these two artists creating a frame together.”
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In trying to find some historical images to share it was very evident how recent any sort of female gaze is. Historically most artwork (painting and sculpture) in the West was funded either by wealthy patrons (men) or by the church. So there are tons of female nudes and we can point to historic women who were renown for their beauty. By contrast it is much harder to point at male examples though I think you could argue they exist (especially when crafted by gay artists). There are apocryphal stories of Medieval women lusting over portraits of St Sebastian but I can't verify.
We start to see a shift once new printing processes make mass media a possibility and art becomes commercial.
The first male model of note I can find is Eugene Sandow (pic related), father of bodybuilding. He developed a physique many people thought was impossible. He pictured himself against Grecian backdrops and covered himself in fig leaves to look respectably artistic, and at shows invited women to touch his biceps. While his later books and talk circuits about bodybuilding were aimed at men throughout his career he aimed at appealing to women. Perhaps the first time the women at his shows was appealed to in that way.
Interesting bit of history, if anyone knows an earlier example please share.
>>7723>I think there is such thing as the male gaze, as per Laura Mulvey’s theory, and that gaze, if you talk strictly about cinema only, has more than 100 years of monopoly. It colonized the new medium from the start. You could say that it has become the official language of cinema.
This point has actually been brought up earlier in the thread. The greater hope and purpose of the thread really is to construct
a female gaze moving forward, particularly in a younger medium that doesn't have everything figured out such as video games. I touch on this here >>7612>Video games could be the space to try and invent it. You have to remember that the way male gaze is executed in film is heavily through cinematic language that men influenced. Video games are a young art form and the theory, take it from someone that studied it, is really really lackluster. We don't have the profound academic theory to back up games that cinema has. It's going to happen as the medium matures and I personally predict Kojima's new project will probably do some Citizen Kane shit for games. It's in inventing new solutions to problems and creating methods which academics then can analyze to break down to theory in how it all works.
Cinematographers do have individual gaze and style but it is contradictory to go from "there is no female gaze bc the theory is created by men in cinema" to "but we are all individuals and our voices are enough" because by her own admission, cinematography also deploys the language of cinema which is largely defined by the male gaze. See where I'm going with this? Cinematography is inherently not divorced from the rest of film theory. What we call style starts off derivative. What is there to be inspired by? Works that are created through a male perspective. How can a cinematographer achieve female gaze if what they have to look at as a starting point is biased? Women being part of the medium is a huge step but I am not really convinced cinema can actually achieve a true female gaze.
What I believe can happen is the female gaze can come into play with young art media (as in plural of medium) with little theory and those new media can then influence cinema where we can appropriate the female gaze. Does this make sense? I'm getting rambly.
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Sandow aside, and local theater actors aside, the first major male sex symbol in the West (in America at least) was the Arrow Collar Man, the face of highly successful ad campaign that began its run in 1905. Crafted by the gay male artist JC Leyendecker, the Arrow Collar man was an immediate hit and the Arrow Collar Man campaign is considered one of the most successful ad campaigns in history. Mass printing technologies and more mature distribution networks gave him reach no stage actor (or film actor) could rival (at least not until film got better distribution).
Women loved the Arrow Collar Man, OG Western husbando. At this point in time the advertising industry was well aware of how valuable women could be as consumers, past the days of patronage women were now targets of artwork but this marks the first time they were appealed to so pointedly and on such a scale (women did much of the shopping for their husbands then as now). Of course many men bought the collars for themselves. The company received hundreds of fan letters.
Here's a really interesting article about it: https://archive.org/stream/pho28chic#page/n775/mode/2up
Interesting to note in that article, that in the early days of film the handsome male leads were usually very young, younger than 25, to match the female audience. By 1925 (date of article) the young leading men were being replaced by older actors, to the consternation of young women. In the early days of cinema women made a larger share of writers, directors and producers and got edged out as the industry consolidated through the 1920s.
I was the anon and what you said was totally justified - it was all very very true. I wasn’t so much trying to justify what I was into (since I’m not into yaoi anymore). My personal experience was totally influenced by the characteristics you specifically mentioned, and I delved deeper in a reply.
I didn’t think you were shaming at all, just calling out that the discourse is old and we been knew why fujos do what they do. Internalized misogyny is probably the biggest kicker and here’s something else - I have a sister and we were both fujos, but she turned into a fakeboi while I had an eating disorder. male/male content definitely creates a lot of self hatred in a lot of young women. >>7733
very true - a lot of BL content falls into troupes seen in F/M content, which can be tiresome if you’re trying to use it as a piece of escapism. A lot of stuff is dubious but all in all, I really don’t think some characters having a trite plot or ooc characters is the worst of the issues when we have straight content that’s dominated by seeing rape and abuse played out in front of you.
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>>7634>i appreciate how nice his profile is when he turns his head, i love the movement of him rolling up his shirt sleeves. it's really, really the little things.
Oh anon I relate so much to what you're describing!
I often end up staring at my partner's profile and complimenting things like noses, hands and legs more than some of the other physical traits (in either sex) that are generally more central in media.
I have had an aversion (for lack of better word) towards very defined muscular bodies since I was a young girl and reading this thread I'm starting to think that maybe this aversion is not as much about the body and its specific expression more so than it is the typical context (often focussed on power and dominance) and setting you see especially muscular men potrayed in.>>7707>>7716
I love the composition of these pics maybe it plays off of being able to observe men doing trivial things like you mentioned without necessarily being noticed or paid attention to yourself. Them being exposed and open, or natural if you will, as opposed to posturing.>>7702>>7709>I think the show Girls was rather female-gazey
I agree with you anons about the show, while being pretty, having what you could call a female gaze or at least a female starting point.>>7680>I also want to hear some feedback on female-pandering YA fiction novels with "strong female protagonists"
I think some of the problems I have had with female protagonists in YA have been how cookie cutter they seemingly are often lacking nuances, depth and character development. It just felt like a lot of Mary Sues kept popping up everywhere alogn with their nondescript friend characters accompanying them on their adventures regardless of whether it was more classical fantasy, dystopian or contemporary fiction.
It should be noted though that these points could also apply to many books pandering to males i.e. commercialised, formulaic, simplistic and stereotypical you could go on and on.
I'm sorry if it comes across as shitting on books and literature that is enjoyed by a lot of people I'm just trying to share my experiences and thoughts on why/how people end up putting down genres like YA (in broad terms).>>7647>>7649>erotic visual media vs erotic written medium
I think both can have potential to be exciting and when poorly executed can in turn have potential to be very entertaining from pure cringiness. That being said, I actually don't think I can recall ever having come across erotic writing that I didn't find cringe-worthy to some extent.
I loved that show! Would reccomand to everyone. It doesnt remind me of HBO Girls at all. >>7735
Yes. I remember how all of my male friends, while acknowledging some good writing, just simply couldnt get into it at all. I remember someone critic saying the show is unrealistic because "ugly girls get hot guys" (which isnt even all that true, except for a few of Hana's boyfriends) but every single other media piece has absolutely disgusting men getting 10/10 hotties.
This whole thing kinda bums me out. I'm taking videography class this year at college and even though my art school is very non-academic and open, my videography teacher is incredibly anal about the rules of editing and frames and the pov of the camera etc… I purposefully chose to work on subjects that have nothing to do with sexuality, gender/sex, men, women, whatever because I know he would hate all of it and I'm already branded as the annoying terf mysandrist. I saw some other girls get absolutely humiliated by him because of the way they filmed.
I hate watch it too bc of how bad it is like the entire G&G subplot retroactively rewriting the previous episodes, oof
and it definitely has a predominateley female fan base but I think its because it falls in the genre of "hot teen highschool show made by men to capitalise on young women" category and it does it well. Teen wolf is another one like that; haven't watched either, but from what I've gathered, I imagine Vampire Diaries and Gossip Girl are in the same group as well.
If I had to nominate a more female-gaze-y teen tv show I'd say Veronica Mars possibly, although it was written by a man, from what I remember Veronica was fairly multi-faceted and her romance was handled more on her terms (correct me if my memory is making it out better than it actually was lmao).
>>7736>shitty videography prof
Do you have any anecdotes about him that specifically show him trying to force a male perspective on a student trying to execute their vision? Could be cool to hear.>>7737
Oh Riverdale, my hatewatch… There are a bunch of male serving lesbian fanservice scenes and the dudes that are shirtless are routinely commented on as looking absurd for doing it. It's more just trashy and tries to hard to give fanservice to both genders and looks stupid doing it imo. I wouldn't call it female gaze tbh, it's just trying to sexualize all of its actors. People still unironically ship characters and want to fuck Archie and stuff but that doesn't even require female gaze. People have a low bar for their tastes and it is indeed true that the melodrama is the main reason women flock to it. Hatewatch or no, the genre statistically has a lot to do with what we choose to view.
As we all probably noticed, women seem to have more of an interest in character driven drama as opposed to men. You could probably compare this to how men seem to prefer action that doesn't have any reason behind it. These respective genres could probably be key to the gaze itself if we were to develop the language of it in cinema.
I hate that even in drama-driven period fiction there are so many historical inaccuracies yet women are pushed around and shown as meat as if the viewership isn't considerably tipped in favor of women. Are these kids of scenes just there as a treat for the boyfriend who has to watch the show with the woman
? I'd dump my bf before I let him enjoy a woman getting shit on bc muh historical accuracy when the king has a Hitler Youth haircut and is speaking colloquially with his servants.
One last note, how did you anons feel about Jessica Jones' writing in particular? She's meant to be a strong female protag but I kinda felt like she was written almost exactly like a male in a superhero noir setting. One night stands, excessive aggression, stoic expressions and lame one liners. I regard it as a character written as male with a woman's body slapped on. I didn't finish the first season because the writing bugged me so much. What do you think?
Samefag but a lot of the issues that also cropped up throughout the story were also ones with predominantly female victims
; rape, stalking, and they were all handled quite well with the main characters interacting with it in an empathetic manner, at least from what I remember they did. I haven’t watched the show in years
Yup, this is the wrong way to write a woman imo. But this is also why it's important to develop a female perspective on cinema/tv and have writers and directors that approach the subject with self-awareness. Female writer's room isn't even enough sometimes. Women are capable of perpetuating shitty writing as well afterall.
I praised Russian Doll earlier and I still stand by it but the protagonist in that also had this weird old jewish man attitude which took me out of the show all the time. I did read that the writers purposely cast Allan and Nadia in roles that would be played by the opposite gender traditionally so I understand. That was all intentional. The rest of the show had a lot of emotional sensitivity and nuance, had a lot of really cool female characters and satisfied my craving.
hell yeah, veronica mars appreciation! I really loved the show when I was like 14, 15, watched lots of shows back then but Veronica was the only female character that I actually
looked up to, glad it wasn't just me romanticising it and thank you for putting it in words much better than I could! too bad the final season went really tits up and then the movie was just spitting on the grave really also logan's actor aged terribly :-(
I wonder is Buffy similar at all when it comes to a well-developed female protag? I was too young to watch it when it came out and so I never did but recently have been considering giving it a shot.
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autistic rambling incoming.
this thread has made me think a lot lately on why i find what i find personally attractive in males. this topic is great, and i want to keep the conversation going. i always thought that my preferences were strange, until i discussed this thing more and more with different female friends as i got older.
what makes a man grab my attention? women are visual too; it's how people make first impressions. visuals have a lot to do with the erotic appeal of a man. it's just not what the visuals that they like in women. we've mentioned in the thread before that they're these fleeting minute details, things they naturally do that reveal to us his character. moments where there's this vulnerable aspect of a man's masculinity that they don't even notice sometimes, i think. not vulnerable in the way where he's suddenly not masculine, just vulnerable in that he's comfortable, confident. the positive traits or what we'd stereotypically consider masculine.
there's also the concept of male gaze vs female gaze- what our eyes are typically (since obviously there are exceptions) drawn to, and what the implications of that means, or why it is this way.
i feel men hyperfixate on the more obvious sexual characteristics of a woman, hence why things get really exaggerated (and imo, disgusting) in porn. it explains why men think female pandering = shirtless men with bulging muscles. that always made me feel alienated because that doesn't appeal to me at all, it felt so needlessly exaggerated. (does anyone else think the really niche deviantart eqsue fetishes are typically drawn/consumed by males? that would explain a lot.)
it makes me wonder why men fantasize about unnatural things. they really get stuck in particular fantasies that are more unrealistic than ones women tend to have.
in my experience, girls tend to focus more on a man's character, or a man's bone structure, or his temperament. again, there are exceptions, but how many girls swoon over a guy's jawline? i think we are more attracted to positive masculine traits, while men are more attracted to exaggerated female traits. am i getting somewhere here?
I dunno about it being more rare for women to be into bizarre, unusual fetishes. I am involved with a strange fetish community and run into far more women than I thought I would. I think that women just aren't socialized to be as open about sexuality, and some of the autists in these communities can get pretty aggressive. I know some women that pretend to be male or make no indication towards their sex online because of this. Most of the women I've talked to were in denial about their fetishes for a long time or were unaware that they were even really aroused, myself included. There seems to be a lot more shame, even anonymous online.
The main difference between male and female content I've found is that when women make fetish artwork they tend to add a lot more context to it. A man may post a fetish picture on its own, but women tend to give it a story, even if it's only a paragraph long. Women also seem to consume and create more written erotica than just plain drawings, and have more OCs they use for a longer time than just one-shot stories.
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Relevent long tumblr post about George of the Jungle and the female gaze this thread reminded me of: http://ms-demeanor.tumblr.com/post/151068279457/bifca-justplainsomething-nakedsasquatch
I’d rather see a man roll up his sleeves than take off his shirt any day
I agree, women tend to focus on more subtle details that compliment the overall figure/image; eyes, jaws, veins, the way they smile, aloof/relaxed body language
As a lot of anons have also mentioned, regardless of whether or not it is sexual, the female gaze is very character focused. We want to see characters interact, evolve, drive stories forward and we catch onto little details that help further illustrate their individuality; clothing, mannerisms, patterns of behaviour
But also from what I’ve seen from female dominated fandoms and just celebrity crushes in general women tend to be drawn to the feminine qualities of men, whether it’s pretty and soft features or more stereotypically feminine interests and mannerisms
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I know some anons here seem to feel pessimistic about women in film or that there wasn't a chance to develop a film language without the influence of the Male Gaze. I don't think that is all quite true. When film was a new you had lots of women experimenting in what was then a novel medium.
Pictured is Alice Guy Blache, the first female film maker and the first the develop narrative film. The films may be primitive now but the silent film era would be an interesting source of female perspective in film before the consolidation of male perspectives and tropes. I don't think you can claim pioneers like Alice were conditioned into following conventions that hadn't been invented yet.
You can look at how children play to see some of this disparity. Little girls can play with cars or action figures or dolls, the toys vary but the way
they play is with narrative. They construct characters and stories. Boys line their toys up and make them power up and kill each other like in Dragon Ball.
The disparity being an affinity for narrative vs extremity and excess. Is something wrong with you
The person I responded to was pointing out how women add narrative context to the porn they create, which is also true for art in general that they create. It also applies to early behavior like playing pretend. If you hear "gaze" and only expect sex to be the subject you're an actual ape.
What point you were making was extremely unclear but ok sis.>The main difference between male and female content I've found is that when women make fetish artwork they tend to add a lot more context to it. A man may post a fetish picture on its own, but women tend to give it a story, even if it's only a paragraph long. Women also seem to consume and create more written erotica than just plain drawings, and have more OCs they use for a longer time than just one-shot stories.
This is what I was responding to and it is relevant.
What would they even benefit from mucking up a thread like this? Learn more about female attraction and instead go, 'no' and mess it up for everyone? Why?>>7758
I'm a bit skeptical of this. I grew up around a lot of children (neighbors) and while the girls may not have been as rough and tumble we did play with the boys so long as we were using toys everyone liked. Everyone agreed animal toys were badass. There were lots of beat em ups and death in our games but everything was backed with longwinded, nonsensical narratives. You could get both camps on the same wave length more or less with the right toys.
I'm tired of the toy bullshit because scrotes use it to push some incredibly dumb narratives. >>7754
I could never like free because of the artstyle, especially the muscles.
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of interest to you all might be a look at the fashion world. my apologies for the link being from Vox, of all places, but this explanation as well as the links within it - of the changes at Céline, which was one of very few fashion houses helmed by women and one that had always been for women (no men's line), loved by female critics and never quite understood by male critics under the direction of Phoebe Philo. last year Phoebe exited the house and was replaced by Hedi Slimane, probably one of the most misogynistic and one-note designers around… who added a pointless mens' line and has deflected critique of his badly-received complete overhaul with accusations of homophobia.. it's all explained better in here. but if you look at Philo's work and her visual research diaries, I think that there's a definite idea of a strong "female gaze"… https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/10/4/17933982/hedi-slimane-celine-phoebe-philo-outrage
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>>7770>What would they even benefit from mucking up a thread like this? Learn more about female attraction and instead go, 'no' and mess it up for everyone? Why?
NTA, but many men are obsessed with telling us what we like, saying we "don't know what we want" and are constantly throwing tantrums when we don't follow the narrative they carved out for us in their own heads.
This thread would be ragefuel for your typical male who believes women are "biologically inclined" to like huge, hairy, 45-year old cavemen "Chads" and secretly love rape porn.
They still think shirtless, hyper-muscular men in media is fanservice for women, and that those cringy romance novel covers are our idea of "sexy", and nothing we say will ever convince them otherwise. In fact, anything less will make them angry. They'd argue to the death about it.
A thread like this could not exist on /tv/, /a/ or even /co/. Too many idiotic, presumptuous men.
Thankfully, this thread seems free of them and the autism they bring.
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Wholeheartedly recommend Miss Fisher’s Murder Mysteries for lovers strong female leads and the female gaze. Story, characters, costumes, music, it’s all excellent.
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Yes, men have this tendency to want to dictate what women should want (the same things as them) and they get angry and uncomfortable when confronted with reality. Like how teenage girls like cute boybands which is bad because they should like…ugly 40 yo he-mans or something.
Also see >>7682
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Have to bring up a screenshot of a quote from that Photoplay article from >>7727
Men have absolutely been trying to dictate what young women should like or ages.
Kek what a load of bullshit that paragraph is
It’s also incredible to see that incel type men think the same delusional way today
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It's to the point where they even get buttmad when pubescent/prepubescent girls like guys who are actually closer to their age. I know it's a joke, but you can absolutely taste the male salt in a title like "Non-threatening Boys", kek. So, women and girls should want
to be threatened? Nice.
I'm just glad that shit never worked on me. I will never be convinced into thinking there's something attractive about ugly, dusty, haggard old fucks. It doesn't even make sense from a biological standpoint.
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God you reminded me of the jealous bullying smol biebs had to endure from adult men, shit was fucked up
You know how when women even make valid
complaits about sexist and objectifying portrayals of women in media, and men respond with "you're just jealous" and "ugly feminists" and things like that? It's projection. They get jealous when girls simply like cute young guys.
Another thing is the push to call beautiful men gay,ugh.
And nowadays in the woke era it's kind of ironic that this idea of men and fictional men being gay is actually widely embraced and progressive. That being said I don't have anything against gay people but one thing is when someone is happy with their sexuality, another thing is when creepy fans forcibly speculate.
The gossip girl series is a masterpiece and I'll fight whoever disagrees. I wouldn't even say it has a female gaze only because it transcends such definitions, but yeah. The girls are never portrayed in a male-appealing context, and although there's romantic relationships and occasionally women competing for a guy, it's always from a female perspective. It explores the majorly-female social relations and hierarchies so deeply and with such richness of detail.
Everyone girl worth her salt should watch gossip girl.
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I am terribly sad about the effective death of Celine. It's always been a brand I've loved and respected and why they decided to move to a pig like Hedi is completely and utterly beyond me.
Compare the old collections to the new and you'll see how gaudy it became. Celine used to make women feel powerful and in control with the iconic designs inspired by working women, Hedi's new vision is reverting the brand to some dated idea of women in sequin dresses and general party outfits. Also the addition of a men's line at all. I am furious.>>7781
It serves men for us to think we are at our "prime" at a barely legal age, somehow. The older men go and prey on young girls which they then complain are too immature and unstable or some bullshit. Women their actual age are ofc so haggard and hysterical
. Look in the motherfucking mirror! I've loved myself and being a woman more and more as I aged and I'll die before I let these creepy pieces of shit devalue my identity because they want to fuck people with undeveloped brains.
Do you anons think there's an increase in older women being given roles where they aren't insane hags, husbandless sexpots, or mothers? I want to be able to see more badass older women that I can look up to or feel vicarious thrills from. It should be essential to fix the average person's view of when women "age out" of being taken seriously. Silver Fox completely also applies to women imo but is not a something people consider it seems.
Toni Colette and Cate Blanchett are probably my two favorite older women right now. I think they have increible presence and energy.
Fucking American Psycho is female gaze now? That list is… interesting. So the site is just reviews and you can arrange films in a list, right? I would have liked some commentary from the person who made the list but I suppose it's not within the framework of the site. >>7794
I have a mixed up view on lolita. On one hand I like that it is definitely not for men at all, that's a rare space in fashion. On the other hand people that are super into weebshit like that are usually mentally ill autists. Not saying you are one, I've met people into lolita that just like it bc it's cute and don't take it to some weird obsessive place. The association turns me off, though. I'm also more interested in seeing women as grown adults, so lolita's infantilized saccharine aesthetic is offputting for me.
When I think of the female gaze in music, the first person that comes to my mind is Bjork. I love the messiness of her emotions and how she has vulnerability that is simultaneously violent. She isn't really presented to be attractive imo, she is presented as a raw and present woman. She can't be contained, her core is explosive. Her songs are outstanding. Do let me know what musicians get you in your femininity!
Been looking for articles that talk about gaze in music after I brought up Bjork and found one somewhat about her, though it spends most of its time putting Beyonce on a pedestal for Lemonade. I find Beyonce's particular brand for feminism and expression to be stale and insincere but that's besides the topic. The following snippet is fascinating:
"…despite the universality of heartbreak, the terrain in which female popstars find themselves on has, historically, been rocky. In music, it has always felt like broken hearts are inherently gendered. Female artists who dare unleash their emotions are often labelled “confessional” singer-songwriters, while their male counterparts are seen as “lyricists”. “Confession is somebody trying to beat something out of you externally,” said Joni Mitchell, who herself released quintessential heartbreak album Blue and has rallied against a "confessional" label her entire career. “You’re imprisoned. You’re captured. They’re trying to get you to admit something. To humiliate and degrade yourself and put yourself in a bad position.”
It’s not just labels we’ve seen traditionally attached to female artists, but limitations too. The pain of Lemonade and Vulnicura is loud, ugly and shameless, but they are groundbreaking exceptions to the pop rule – it’s no secret that a lot of society still finds women who show these emotions as threatening. When women are angry, they are supposed to be sexy too, like Taylor Swift in Red. When women are hurting, they are supposed to be dignified with it, like Adele in 21. And when women are depressed, they have to be so with the utmost poeticism, like Amy Winehouse in Back to Black.
When women do unleash, there's the expectation that they must direct it inwards, towards themselves, in an act of romanticised destruction, like Lana Del Rey in Ultraviolence. When it’s expressed outwardly, it’s considered too aggressive to be normal. Rest assured, if a woman had written Eminem’s The Marshall Mathers LP, she’s more likely to have been labelled “unhinged” than given awards, and if a woman had released any of Drake’s tracks, you can bet your house she’d be castigated as “too needy.”"
Everything is a sissy magnet to mentally ill men. I’m not going to let how men behave stop me from enjoying what I love. It’s hard enough being a woman sometimes.>>7797>I'm also more interested in seeing women as grown adults, so lolita's infantilized saccharine aesthetic is offputting for me.
That’s fair. Alternative fashions that stand out absolutely attract weirdos, attention seekers, and unstable weens. But there’s more to lolita than just the super sweet OTT kind. Even then, if done right you should look more like someone from candyland, not a literal child. There’s nothing childish about classic or gothic though.
Most lolita brands are made and designed solely by women, which is different from other fashions, even most couture is run solely by gay men.
Probably referring to the first ten minutes of the movie (where he does his skincare and works out) as female gaze-y, which is a pretty shallow and male-centric view of what women find attractive, I think.
As for musicians that get me in my femininity, I’m Lin love with mitski.
I'm the one that made the children playing comment and I just want to point out I wasn't commenting on what toys they choose. I was commenting on how
they use the toys. A world of difference and I want to make sure my idea isn't misrepresented.
My point was: no matter what toys they pick, girls seem to pursue narrative depth while boys seem to pursue action and excess, as mirrored in the fan content the genders create.
american psycho always has appealed to me because of how the film (i plan on reading the book but still haven't) makes no attempt at giving bateman any sympathy or redemption. it shows that many men lack empathy and are capable of the worst deeds. i feel too many media where the antagonist is male try to sympathy bait. american psycho doesn't do that at all. even the ending says a lot. he gets away with it, like many men are able to get away with heinous crimes irl.
that being said, the film is also very aesthetically pleasing, if not eerily bare, which stylistically makes sense given the nature of bateman's character and all. i think it's very possible some male directors (for example) can create female gaze-y films, i'd say wes anderson's films really appeal to me.
bjork is amazing, and i love mitski too!
i love a lot of female artists, but i think the ones who seem the most outspoken about how they express their femininity would be cherry glazerr (vid related, that song is so powerful and i highly recommend it), japanese breakfast, varsity, courtney barnett, and portishead.
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I'll say that I am one of those person's that prefers written erotica, but tastes are so personal that it can be hard to find stuff I like. I write stuff for personal use, haven't found anything I like better. Comics can work better than visuals or word alone but has two potential failure points.>>7668
I wonder if we ever shared a class together, because for a group project the women in the group came up with the same hypothetical experiment (framed as an art project).
I do want to touch on the subject of doomsday themes, since it is definitely one that is very popular in male oriented media. The End of the World As We Know It (TEOTWAWKI) is a favored trope in fiction primarily starring men and consumed by men and sustainability and preppers comms are mostly male. The numbers are of course, inflated by men hoarding tacticool armor and shit. While an interesting subject it is definitely a stale one and you quickly get the impression that many of these men welcome doomsday scenarios and think they're gonna make out of it like Mad Max. There are female doomsday preppers too but I think the closest female equivalent are like the female hippies (a lot of crossover in interests/concerns) and the vibe is really different.
Regardless I would like to see the subject handled from a female perspective if only to spice it up
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My favourite action film ever is Mad Max: Fury Road. I don't think it's a coincidence that it's also has a female editor, female costume designer and a feminst advisor regarding portrayal of sexual abuse in war zones. I like how Charlize Theron looks in this - a real post-apocalyptic action heroine, not eye candy for men. >>7813
Why is that cringy? Do you think having sexual fantasies is cringy too - she just writes her down?
If no one wrote or drew their fantasies there would be no erotica or drawn porn. You realize that, right? Or are you one of those anons who think sex and sexual fantasies are all wrong?
Why? Most pornograohic material will never even come close to my own fantasies, wanna know why? Because they have everything I’d ever want in them and aren’t subject to others tastes
How is it any way weird or shortsighted to prefer ones own sexual fantasies over someone else’s
Fantasies are one thing, work is another, work includes your skill.
You do you anon but I can't get off to my own work because I keep thinking about it critically, it also feels too weird because I'm familiar with the whole creative process of how this was made, which kills absoluely any suspense.
Sounds like a you problem.
Personally, no one draws 5' brown guys getting pegged like I do and this will continue to be the most accurate to what I'm into.
Are y'all done shitting up the thread with "ur cringe" and "i am the best at this". Make a Porn Debate Club: Fallacy Edition thread and shit on each other there. Nobody c a r e s.>>7812
I am not so sure about survival and chosen one narratives being male gaze considering female-pandering YA works also pretty much feature the same premise if the genre is fantasy or scifi. You could probably argue that this happens bc they just try to appropriate plot structure that appeals to males and just swap genders and add a romance arc which isn't really true female gaze. Idk.>>7668
I'm interested in this idea of voyeurism vs being watched but not getting to point it out or react to it situation. I relate to this perhaps a little too much due to my proneness to depersonalization but I always related to characters in media that are sexualized to the point where they can't connect to anyone and feel alone. Perhaps it's at the core of why male gaze is extremely offputting for me, it's the same shit we experience outside of films but amplified. Why does the thing I consume for escapism also show me a world where I am still an object? Ideally I'd like to be able to break that dominant gaze and have mine manifest rather than make do with only being the object to be gazed at.
Somebody sure got triggered
over around 4 posts.
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the adaptation of American Psycho was directed by mary harron, director of the fantastic valerie solanas biopic I Shot Andy Warhol. the book is misogynist trash but Harron read and turned it into fantastic satire of male vanity and pathology, which men - even Ellis himself, really - still misunderstand to this day. read this, see that "American Psycho resits its antihero’s allure. Harron, Turner, and Bale rightfully see Bateman as pathetic.":https://www.villagevoice.com/2016/06/07/the-female-gaze-of-american-psycho-how-mary-harron-made-fantasy-into-timeless-satire/
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Outlander? A "pop culture breakthrough?" Author of this article immediately discredited.https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2134849-spoiler-the-beating-scene-and-why-it-is-just-plain-wrong-to-try-and-ju>About half way through the book, the protagonist, Claire, is violently beaten by her lover/husband, Jamie, as punishment for endangering him and his clan. While I could have accepted the scene as a pivotal point in Claire’s character development or point of tension between the main characters, I could not bear the fact that: 1.) Jamie admits to enjoying beating her, 2.) Claire forgives him almost instantly, 3.) Jamie proceeds to rape her the next day, and 4.) after said abuse, Claire tells Jamie she loves him for the first time.
Hmm, fair points on American Psycho. Perhaps I'm conflating how the incels of 4chan idolize him as /theirguy/ with the actual framing in the film. I should watch it again, I've only seen it once.
I finished Lady Bird earlier today and thought it was fantastic. Female director and writer! The story was a coming of age kinda jam but the execution is what really resonated with me. I loved its emotional vulnerability and I found the story quite realistic to my own experiences as a mid class kid in a rich private school with big mouth. The protag sticks out and is grating on people, and is treated a million different ways by all the people around her. I also loved her relationship with her best friend Julie who also reminds me of a lot of quiet girls I've known, relegated to the background even though they're quite good at some things. The issues at home were all very familiar too, either my own or friends' lives. Highly recommended, it deserves all the positive buzz it received when it came out.
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I love this movie so much. The entire aesthetic, the look of the desert, the insane cars, the crazy skull emblems, Furiosa herself, the women warriors and their outfits, it all appeals to me as a woman. One of my favorite things about this movie that is non-visual is it takes the topic of sexual abuse, but it doesn't go the typical male route with shoving in uneeded rape scenes. The whole movie is so over the top, yet we never see Immortan Joe sexually abuse his wives. We know it happens, and that is enough. There's also that amazingly creepy scene of the fat women being milked. Not male gaze-like at all, just full on creepy, showing how fucked up Immortan Joe is. And frankly, that is all we need.
Terminator 2 is another favorite of mine and I love how buff Linda Hamilton got for that movie. It was entirely practical that she would train herself that way, and it wasn't sexualized at all, and she looked fucking amazing to me. Hell, I'd even argue for some women, Predator could be a bit of a female gaze movie, if you love buff men. The one female character, Anna, is also completely non-sexualized and helps them out.
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What do you guys think about Game of Thrones? It's not exactly female-gazey but everyone and their grandma shills it as empowering for women and it is touted for having strong female characters of both the masculine and feminine variety. iirc it has a female writer (among many males) and a female costume designer as well.
Personally, I think the characters on the show are poor caricatures of their book versions. Martin captures the female experience a lot better than most other fantasy writers, and much much better than the show writers. I know book sperging is better left to reddit or one of the designated forums, but I'm curious to hear what casual female show watchers (and book readers) think without a bunch of scrotes jumping in to yell about how this show is the best thing for women/feminism since Rosie the Riveter.
the books have some good characterization since we can hear the female characters' thoughts, but still an issue with bringing Western misogyny into a fantasy world that could have completely different social codes. I mean, it's written by a white American guy, so it makes sense the source material is gonna have innate bias that he doesn't specifically mean to include but just can't imagine not existing in the world. just lazy and unimaginative I guess. for Tywin to be all "oh Cersei you're a woman so you could never have any real
power" like, it's a completely made up world, why is it so unthinkable
that a woman could be treated with respect and hold the same levels of power as a man? There are fucking dragons and zombies. Why is it seen as "unrealistic" to have gender equality? (And don't even get me started on the show writing in homophobia and seeing Loras as "sinful" for being with men when NO ONE has a problem with it in the books, aside from making some insensitive jokes. It's not illegal to be gay in the books, WHY make it in the show? wtf)
But shit like the show changing book-character arcs so Sansa goes to the Boltons and gets raped and abused is just awful to me. The writers of the show use abuse of women(+weird objectification, like Melisandre taking off her jewel necklace and suddenly not be ~smokin hot~) for shock value, and it's so incredibly BORING and distasteful. and framing Sansa's rape from how sad it makes Theon
feel about witnessing it, rather than focusing on Sansa's feelings since she's the one being raped.
plus like, we see tits and pussy in almost every episode, but we've only seen one dick. even when Jon Snow was lying DEAD on the table, they had a modesty cloth over his bits, which they would never even IMAGINE doing if it were a dead female. You know she would be full frontal for everyone to oggle even though she's a literal dead person, they would still make it visible for everyone to get horny over
The first page of that thread is infested with men arguing that misogyny doesn't even exist in Game of Thrones, hence why I thought I'd bring the discussion to a female-only space. I explained this in my first comment.>>7836
I agree, I think male writers not being able to even imagine a universe where women and men are equal speaks to an utter lack of creativity. But I also think Martin is a history buff who just wanted to do a dramatic retelling of The War of Roses with the added excitement of magic and dragons. imo it would've been just as big of a mistake to gloss over the terrible stuff women went through during that period. Especially since the main theme of the books is "war and feudalism are bad". It's hard to tell a story about dismantling a monarchy without including sexism and male primogeniture. Still, I'm always torn on whether I should recommend the books to my female friends.
As for the show, I'll never understand why some women will go to the grave insisting that the female characters are so relatable and empowering. Especially ones like Sansa and Cersei who go through such drastic personality changes at the flip of a coin to suit the narrative. There's also someone like Asha who goes from being a masculine heterosexual woman who defies gender roles by being captain of her ship and enjoying kinky sex and joining a moot to become queen, to being a creepy predatory lesbian who has no desire to rule and who "cures" her brother's PTSD by emasculating him. iirc Arya and Brienne also have show-exclusive one-liners about how women are stupid and weak. Further proof that most men can only write three types of women: the madonna, the whore, and the woman who's actually a man. I wish there were more female non-YA fantasy writers.
Flatter and worse than the books, but that's been said already. I sorta still enjoy the show, but it's got a lot of problems, not just in the sexism, but the writing. Also, it was male gaze as fuck for many seasons. Remember the scene of Littlefingers whores fingerblasting one another while he monologues for five minutes? They even had articles about that at the time, calling it "sexposition" instead of exposition. Not to mention, even in the first episode, Tyrion is introduced to us… in a whorehouse. He was introduced to us reading a book in the books. Dany's wedding night was clearly non-consensual in the show, while in the book, at least she seemed okay with Drogo at first. Still, their relationship was creepy as hell, no matter how you split it.
After a shitload of criticism for five seasons, they finally toned down some of the rape and nudity, but the damage was done by that point. The series is, like so many other HBO and Showtime shows chock full of so much pointless nudity and sex and rape just to go "See? We're a premium channel. We can do that! It's for adults!" Even True Detective got that shit shoved in. Miraculously, the third season has avoided needless nudity and overly long sex scenes so far.>>7836
I agree with a lot of this. I think the books have great worldbuilding, and some good characterization, but at the same time… it's a world of fucking dragons and ice zombies. Why throw in misogyny for the sake of "realism"? The sexualization of Daenarys is pretty skeevy in the books too. That was one of the things the show at least got right - it aged the cast up.
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We are in the midst of the age of the female gaze right now. They are the primary market demographic.
I'm surprised people don't realize how close we are to Mills & Boon covers these days.
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Yeah I feel very pandered to by that top pic
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Bloody,sweaty,hyperventilating men in Hannibal is top female gaze material.
Sex scenes are usually cringey but the one's in Hannibal were tasteful/artsy nothing vulgar >>18614
shirtless muscular men are kinda boring
Why compare the shirtless men to clothed headshots of the women? I would never watch that wifebeater movie but even I know both get undressed.>>18642
It would be very generous to assume otherwise.
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yes, I'm sure you are examples of the average moviegoing woman, and not yaoi readers and jrock fans.
It's so mundane to see a shirtless man doing normal shit like jogging or at the beach.
There's nothing sensual about it
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Right? It's like men don't know what we're into, so they just genderbend what they're into (and make sure to let out their oen latent, or not-so-latent homosexual thoughts) and call it a day.
Then they get mad when we say we don't like that, just like >>18658
That is a great question to bring up. I'm not totally sure but here are some thoughts:
I like looking at commercials for this stuff because they're very specific on purpose, to appeal to their very specific demographic. Travel commercials are the best at this, as are car commercials. For resort hotels trying to get at women, they usually push ideas like the family being emotionally in-tune and tranquility, sort of hinting at inner peace and comfort. For cars, they usually either push the family being pleasant or having a self-reliant, working woman lifestyle.
Perhaps the satisfying ending brings us reconciliation with the role of womanhood? When I think back to media with endings that I particularly liked, it's usually been introspective endings that revolved around self acceptance and becoming the master of one's own condition.
I don't really think the end goal part is that different from men in that way though. It just seems like gender-related self-actualization to me.
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I live for Adam Driver, shirtless or not lmfao
TLJ was a gift in that department and nobody will tell me otherwise
I honestly find his face super attractive (even, if not especially, the ears), but his body really does nothing for me personally.
He's not fat or anything just…W I D E. Didn't expect it.
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Both terms, male gaze and female gaze are moronic. Yes, both men and women like to look at things they find attractive, I truly find the hypocritical prude attitude by secular people to be insufferable. >>7706>>7709>>7710
I just don't get the appeal of yaoi, it seems to me that is made by and aimed to women that can't self insert.
As for the reasons why fujos being hated is due to being obnoxious shipperfags and the fact that supposedly gay fiction isn't appealing for actual gays.
I wish there were more straight vanilla where the guy is good looking, nakeed and shown from different views like the girl. >>7713>The west has a very toxic view on emotions, unfortunately
Wrong, the East has far more sever attitude against expressing emotions and instead encourage self-restraint. The real problem is the dominance of unhealthy prude view about sex that started and spread by Catholics and rooted so deeply that even hypocritical secular feminists adopt it.
I will note I only support 2D and find real one to be disgusting and not to mention have far more issues with human trafficking and so on. >>7610>We are all the product of an entire lifetime under a patriarchal society>le evil man >we live in a society
>It’s impossible to say what a female gaze would be>I don't know what attracts me
Are you asexual?
I just don't understand why that anon thinks it makes women lesser for liking feminine men…or being les/bi.
If anything it's BDE to want a frail, effeminate partner since you know you can take care of yourself.
the otomes made by Koei are made by Ruby Party, an in-house development team composed of women https://koei.fandom.com/wiki/Ruby_Party
. When Quinrose went bankrupt several of its ghostwriters were revealed as women as well
however I'm pretty positive most of the writers in Otomate are male, you just have to see the kind of crap they put out lol
I feel like yandere is acceptable if they're only hostile towards other people and not their love interest. I like the idea of how lovesick and devoted yandere are, but a lot of the time they just loop back around to being spiteful and hurtful towards the love interest.>>59929
Oh yeah, I remember Angelique back in the day and Kiniro no Corda but never played them. They seem quite pure-hearted and tame from a quick glance. Has anyone here played them and can tell me a little more?
>however I'm pretty positive most of the writers in Otomate are male, you just have to see the kind of crap they put out
Amensia, Brothers Conflict, and Diabolik Lovers turned me away from otome. They seemed really popular even with western readers so I thought they might be ok for a first-time reader but they were all trash. I have no doubt those were written by men, especially Diabolik Lovers.
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>>59830>>59929>>59904>>59962>Shoujo love interests are also pretty abusive and rapey. Maybe I am being biased and this is the majority of what teenage girls/women are brain-washed to like in Japan
First thing, it isn't as common as it used to be, I noticed shoujo is less trashy than in the past, at least from my observation.
Second thing, this kind of writing isn't exclusive to Japan/Asia, see Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey.
>I just think it's weird that young girls are fantasizing about being locked up in cages or being talked down to by someone who claims to love them rather than something more pure-hearted? It really bothers me
There's reason why it's called FANTASY. *Many women also fantasize about rape, it doesn't mean they actually want to be raped! Take people who are into vore etc
I think you confuse the means with the end, what really stand behind this and what is actually the common fantasy is the idea that some hot guy who is also rich and/or smart etc is all over what is rather in average girl/woman. Women/girls don't like the stalking, abuse on itself, what they like is the idea that man would be head over heels for them to the point he can't control himself and so on.
*Before I will be accused by someone that I'm a man for saying that let me just give some reference as proof >Studies have found rape fantasy is a common sexual fantasy among both men and womenhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_fantasy
>>however I'm pretty positive most of the writers in Otomate are male, you just have to see the kind of crap they put out>I have no doubt those were written by men, especially Diabolik Lovers
Nah, men that actually write Shoujo are super vanillahttps://mangadex.org/title/16050/kawaii-hito
Another example would be different ending of Kare Kano anime (directed by the master Hideaki Anno) than the original manga.>>59834>for the love of god I'd like to find more explicit art like this which isn't gay/involves man ass/is a straight couple, what do I have to search for to find a beautiful 2D couple?
And even than it will be like finding a needle in a haystack, don't forget most vanilla is still made by and aimed for men.
Another thing you can search for is OTPs from animes which is an easier way to find good vanilla (Eremika have some god tier doujins).
I think we have to set a clear boundary between what is rape and what is simply the man taking the initiative. Because when I've talked to my friends who claim to like "rape" it's not really so. It's simply the man being more eager in a way where they might be more assertive. Like you said, loss of control because they are so attracted to her, but it's never the spiteful, hateful, actions you see in actual rape. I believe this is the majority of "rape" women seem to like and scrotes love to tote this as women liking real rape, but it is really just the man leading.
>it's not real! they don't actually want to be raped!
Yes, obviously they would only want it in a situation where they have some control. But still it says a lot about their low self-worth and mental state to desire it in the first place. In their minds they are only attractive and desired if a man is violating their boundaries and raping them. It isn't healthy. Like how people here call men sick for sexualizing drawings of children? They don't want to have sex with real kids (imo i think loli tends to have some post-pubescent features mixed in as well), but it's still terrible.
If a woman has fantasies about actually being raped she is sick and shouldn't be writing that shit for young impressionable teenagers. The majority of rape you see in shoujo/otome is actual rape, the heroine doesn't want it, you can observe her thought processes and everything. This is the sort of shit that scrotes think most women like (obviously I don't doubt that some do, but the majority of women do not like abuse/rape)
sigh, ye know, reading some of this kinda gets me worried. im in the middle of doing more nsfw in hopes of getting more attention for once in life…and i wanna avoid just being some porn artist that draws big tiddy anime girls all day.
the real issue is a lot of what women are into don't apply to me. like, i enjoy shoulders and shit but mostly care about the backside of a person more really. hands are just meh since i guess when you struggle drawing hands you start to grew sense anxious jealousy over how something you assume is easy to draw isn't.
sachiko never really did anything for me or really any of the so called "female" gaze oriented works listed here. maybe i find doing my own eoritca turns me on more than per-etablished things. but i'm just the exception not the rule.
women in my eyes are not monolith and have their own ideas of what they find "good looking"
I'm kind of with you, anon. I appreciate Sac's work as well as more "aesthetic" things…but also just love some man ass. I also draw my own porn, and while some may be what this thread trended towards, some is also just a close up of an asshole and some balls. Classic 2D porn style.
Someone did mention before itt that female attraction is crazy varied though, moreso than with men. And I'd agree. It's harder to pander to women since we're less in agreement about what the hot standard is than men.
With all the degeneracy online these days I forgot vanilla existed as a category>don't forget most vanilla is still made by and aimed for men
Aaaand that’s why I forgot. Straight (male gaze) vanilla is so stock porny and boring. At least being bi means I can enjoy the woman when they often put fuck all effort into drawing the man. I have your pic related saved btw, it’s hilarious (and gives tomboys like me hope). I get annoyed when solo male art gets tagged as gay because not everyone who wants to look at a man is another gay male or a fujo ffs
I thought most (mobile) otome are shit because they’re just shovelware some cheap dev made for profit, they look so low quality I’d chalk it up to sheer laziness by some out of touch Japanese person who just wants to milk a platform/genre they don’t care about.>>60044
I noticed most men have really square glutes instead of ‘bubble butts’ but as long as they’re nice loafs and not sad sacks of cellulite like h3h3 that’ll do for me. Funnily enough I never get anxious about drawing hands because they’re one of my favorite body parts. What people find hard about hands is just something else I put more care into because I enjoy it, so it ends up being fun. Recently I studied back muscles and now I think they’re delicious
i'm not into vanilla be it for women or men. it's like boring as shit. i've always been into transformation, expansion and monsters for awhile now since i was kid even though at first i was kinda scared of it…then kinda got into it. im fucking weird.
though, i'm starting to open to the good old sex related fetishes and foreplay..and bondage lately. >>60051
i wanna get better at feet since i'm into it somehow. hands are a second concern now that i'm getting better at them lately. (the funny thing i use to hate feet fetish stuff until i realized i had fixation on barefoot characters..)
alas i'm lazy as fuck and i much rather write porn then draw it really since i'm use to drawing characters by themselves.
tl;dr i'm a massive degenerate…
I always liked Josei better than Shoujo since Shoujo tends more to be sugary romance and finding love while Josei is more about the reality of being in a relationship and how you deal with a person and their family and all the positive and negatives that come with it. Josei also tends to deal with abusive
shit and calls it abusive
moreso than shoujo would. Also women are allowed to be imperfect in Josei manga and anime. I guess it's because of that stuff that Josei isn't as popular as Shoujo.
Princess Jellyfish is probably the most popular example and one of my favorites.
Not Josei (and I don't even know what category it would fit in) but Michiko to Hatchin is probably the closest you get to a full action oriented Anime with a female gaze. It was written by a man but it's directed by Sayo Yamamoto (who directed The Woman Called Fujiko Mine and Yuri on Ice) and she had full creative freedom in the design and what each scene was going to focus on and could do her own changes.